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[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.26.2012 , 04:01 PM | #1
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
3/12/13
I have decided to quit ToR. Information about the future of this guide and just a general farewell can be seen in this topic: http://www.swtor.com/community/newre...eply&p=5987793

I'd like to give a special thanks to everyone in this thread that has defended, theorycrafted and otherwise supported this guide and I since I created it way back when.

also, five+ hours of top-tier rwz gameplay (teamspeak chatter included!) http://www.twitch.tv/wifileague/b/342519892#[/SIZE]

THIS GUIDE IS WORK IN PROGRESS I WILL CONTINUE TO CLEAN IT UP AND ADD STUFF WHEN I GET THE TIME CHANGELOG AT END OF OP


Hi Party Time Wakalord Flex Guildmaster here from the Bastion server. I've played Assassin more or less exclusively since launch and I've noticed that there aren't any real guides updated for 1.4. Given that our resident Shadow/Assassin hero Xinika has been fairly inactive as of late I am taking it upon myself to update our community's resources on everyoneís favorite force lightening-ing (or pebble throwing) double-bladed saberists.

To set the record straight, this isnít a guide on the basics of the Assassin. If you donít know what Exploitive Strikes, Crackling Blasts, Eye of the Storm, etc/Republic equivalents are, donít bother reading this guide first-go look read up on the classí abilities first. In fact, go read up on every class/spec/ability, itíll make you a much better player. Secondly, this guide pertains exclusively to PvP. So uhÖI wonít be talking about parsing your dps on trash mobs or whatever it is people are doing these days.

Iím going to begin by discussing the notable 1.4 balance changes for the Assassin. Afterwards Iíll describe and share my opinion on every common and not so common Assassin spec. Lastly, Iíll describe how to play my own personal Deception-based spec! In the end, youíll hopefully walk away a better player, with a better grasp on the assassin class, ToR PvP, sex, religion and microeconomics.

Important changes in 1.4
Maul
Quote:
Duplicity: When Exploit Weakness activates, your next Maul deals 30% more damage and costs 75% less Force. This cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds, but each rank after the first reduces this rate limit by 3 seconds.
Big buff, extra damage is much more useful than 50% armor penetration. When properly geared Maul will crit pretty much everything that isnít a tank for about 5k (tanks still get chunked for a good deal). Itís always been important to take at least 1 point in Duplicity regardless of spec, and that is even more important now. Very good buff, take advantage of it.

Lower cds on stuff
Quote:
Darkswell now additionally finishes the cooldown of Blackout when you exit stealth.
Avoidance now additionally reduces the cooldown of Force Speed by 2.5 seconds per point.
Force Cloak now has a 2 minute cooldown.
Force Speed now has a 20-second cooldown (down from 30).
The changes to Force Speedís cooldown is an absolutely gigantic buff to non-darkness specs. Seriously, the cooldown on Force Speed was literally halved. Thatís huge, (while this couldíve been mitigated pre-1.4 via Lightening Recovery it sucked not being able to take Chain Shock). This is amazing for Deceptionís ability to stick to a target and to dart around the map to do various things like reinforce/ninja a node. The lowered cooldown on Force Cloak is no less impressive. Darkness/Madness will still want to stick with using it as their big escape tool/ball reset as 2 minutes is still a bit iffy for liberal use. Deception, however, can afford to be a bit more ballsy with their vanish. Assuming you start a fight from stealth, if youíre willing to use Force Cloak you can keep Blackout (and thus, your 25% damage reduction) up for 24 seconds. Eat it, Rebuke/Cloak of Pain! 90 second cooldown means that if you arenít stupid the ability will usually be up when you need it. Need to disengage from a fight and go ninja something? Escape? Go balls deep on your target? You can do it, and do it frequently. An extremely welcome change.

Entropic Field
Quote:
Critical hits now cause you to build an Entropic Field, increasing damage reduction by 1% per point per stack. This effect stacks up to 3 times. This skill is now located in tier 5 of the skill tree.
It was a meh talent before, mostly filler because honestly, what else were we supposed to take? Much better now. 6% damage reduction really adds up when you factor in Sith Defiance and Blackout. Youíll pretty much always have this buff up in a fight thanks to Recklessness and the multi-hitting Thrash. Very much worth taking.

Magnetism
Quote:
Magnetism is a new 1-point skill in tier 6 of the skill tree. It causes the target of your Spike to be slowed by 70% for 3 seconds when the knockdown effect ends. It requires Static Cling.
Nah. If Iím running full Deception Iíd rather take Insulation over Static Cling for further survivability. Due to Force Speed buffs youíll rarely be kited so hard to make Static Cling necessary. Even though a 70% slow, however brief, is quite good, the target can simply use a CC of their own in turn to buy time for the very short (3 second) Spike slow to wear of. There are better talents to take than the three points necessary for Spike slow.

Lightening Recovery
Quote:
Lightning Recovery has been redesigned. It now requires Lightning Reflexes and increases the Force recovered by Lightning Reflexes. Successful shielding, parries, and deflects now reduce the active cooldown of Force Shroud by .5 second per point. This effect cannot occur more than once every second.
The changes to Force Shroud, on the other hand, arenít so hot. Great for tanks in PvE but shielding isnít as prominent in PvP (though it is certainly still a factor, despite what most of the idiots in this game would argue). Full tanks donít have much to worry about-itemized correctly youíll shield enough stuff to make the cooldown fairly similar to pre-patch. 23/1/17 hybrids may consider taking a shield as they shouldnít be the primary dps anyways, though itís iffy at best-is losing out on ~200 power really worth a tad lower cooldown? Given that the shield is the only tanking piece hybrid should take no matter what, Iíd argue no. An exception may be made in Huttball where you really want Shroud off cooldown to run through fire pits and whatever. But still, meh. Overall it sucks for nontanks, but played smartly, it hardly breaks the class.

Blackout
Quote:
Darkswell causes Dark Embrace to reduce all damage taken by 25% while active.
This and the Maul change have singlehandedly brought Deception back from the grave. Flat 25% damage reduction is huge and drastically increases Deceptionís survivability. I tend to use this ability more for the 25% damage reduction in small encounters/duels as it really is a huge boon to your ability to not immediately die to everything ever. You shouldnít be running out of force too often (stop using Maul without exploit weakness you dummy) so it is generally better to pop Blackout when you are getting focused and stuff.


Assassin specs
The best thing about the assassin AC is its versatility-it can maintank/offtank/burst/sustained dots. They have tons of crowd control, taunts and the ability to do tons of damage. In theory its very much a jack of all trades class, and while that means they shouldnít be as tanky as Guardians or deeps as hard as Marauders/Snipers, they are more than capable of doing it all (not at the same time, of course). In my experiences, anyways.

One thing is certain-there are more viable/semi-viable assassin specs compared to other advanced classes. Here are some of the more commonly seen specs and my opinions on each:

Classic Hybrid 23/1/17
The old standard. Still a very competitive spec, the utility of 30m death field, force pull, out of stealth spike and instant whirlwind is unparalled by any other class or spec in the game. Due to this, this is far and away the best assassin spec for undergeared players. I will repeat this: if you don't have at least full war hero (aka non-itemized war hero), don't run any other spec (except maybe full darkness). You simply won't do enough damage and you'll die way too quickly. Spec is simple in execution. If you know how to play the class, you'll still be able to contribute a good deal to the team even if you're in recruit gear.

This spec received a slight nerf in 1.4 due to the changes to force shroud, since shielding isnít as big in PvP and you ideally want to run a focus in this spec anyways. It hurts our survivability but it hardly relegates the spec to unplayable status. This spec is still arguably the best node guard in the game but still does a more than adequate job of offtanking, ninja capping and just derping around middle nodes on Civil War and Alderaan. A very good spec, the one that all assassin players should master first due to its versatility.

Given that Iíve emphasized how this should be the spec all rookie assassins should play, Iíll give a brief rundown on what to actually do. Your rotation is basically:
Death field (EVERY COOLDOWN...unless you really need to save it for some reason, but as a general rule of thumbÖ)
Energized Shock
Thrash
Saber Strike

It is important to note that Thrash does more damage per Force than Shock. So unless you need to burst something down or you have the Energized buff, always Thrash instead of Shock. Use your CCs as needed. Remember, Force Pull makes big plays. Donít randomly use it-use it to pull ball runners into fire pits. In high level PvP it probably wonít outright kill them but youíll probably force a big defensive/escape cooldown. On Civil War/Novare Coast/Voidstar (but mainly the former two) you can pull suspectible targets into your team and just blow them up. Save Spike to interrupt big hitters like Harnessed Darkness Force Lightening/Ravage. For additional examples of smart use of CC see the ďHow to play 0/27/14Ē section.
Finally, you have a guard, so use it. As this spec isnít the main tank (hopefully) you shouldnít be burdened with guarding the enemyís primary focus target. Thatís the maintanks job usually. But just guard something, it is really important and greatly beneficial to your team. Especially if youíre undergeared. Your miniscule health bar will drop even faster guarding somebody, but youíll be keeping a more important member of the team alive longer. It isnít glorious but your allies will love you in turn. Actually, theyíll probably just give you hell for being undergeared. Oh well, Iíll love you <3



Full Tank 31/1/9
Yes, run one point in exploit weakness thereís absolutely no reason not to even in full tank-maul is really, really good. While full tank is often overlooked by the above hybrid spec, it is still quite useful. Full tank has great peel and a spammable slow in Wither (donít forget how useful the aoe 5% damage reduction debuff is)! Itís okay for guarding nodes, though the lack of death field and insta whirlwind doesnít really make up for the (minimal) added survivability-if you arenít stupid you wonít be soloíd at a node anyways and 23/1/17 deals with multiple people better. Unlike tank juggs/pts, this spec can still be run in full dps gear without being useless, but you should really stick to 23/1/17 if you want Darkness dps. Underrated spec, very useful in big drawn out fights, but preferably stick to hybrid for solo guarding.

It should also be noted that depending on what your team needs, 31/10/0 could also be a very good spec. As you're in full tank gear you won't be doing much damage anyways, so why bother with Chain Shock when you could have lower cooldowns on Force Speed and Unbreakable Will? The lowered cost of Thrash and Shock (mainly the latter) is extremely helpful, but 10 points in Deception should not be overlooked. If you're Wither spec in Huttball you should always take points in Deception over Madness, just because of how the warzone works. Again, depends on team composition and how much damage you really need to do as a tank.

Harnessed Hybrid 27/1/13
Itís like 23/1/17 but you get Harnessed Darkness instead of insta Whirlwind whoop dee doo. A lot of people liked this spec in 1.3 which is a shame because it is exceptionally retarded, moreso now in 1.4. If youíre running hybrid darkness youíre team support and exist to CC the living hell out of everything. Harnessed Darkness doesnít make you a better node guarder-the essential loss of Whirlwind makes it VERY difficult to 1v2 and to even stall 1v1. If your opponents are too stupid to use a knockback when you cast Force Lightening you can probably beat them regardless of the spec anyways. Itís compromising utility for a damaging skill that will never be fully casted against any competent player. Donít use this spec.

Dark Maul 23/17/1
Apparently all the rage on the forums. I donít know why, this is an awful spec in all but one situation. People espouse the maul crit damage and Blackout, but again, if youíre hybrid darkness your role is team support. You lose out on Death Field and instant Whirlwind, those things=big utility. Not having them as hybrid darkness=very bad. Besides, while sure, youíll be doing tons of Maul damage, youíre missing out on Chain Shock, Claws of Decay, Death Field and Exploitive Strikes. Oh gee, bummer.

The only situation where you would want to run a darkness hybrid with Darkswell is when youíre going to be a primary carrier of the Huttball. I still strongly believe that in all other cases 23/1/17 outclasses this spec. And really, while you can do a decent job of being a ball carrier with this spec, youíre still a poor manís Juggernaut tank. Vastly overrated spec.

Wakajinn 0/27/14
My personal favorite spec for dps. Besides myself and Majinn, nobody I know of runs this spec. So Iíll just go out on a limb and call this the Wakajinn spec (if Xinika can make up names for specs so can I). Basically, youíre a deception spec with Death Field over Voltaic Slash. Though you lose out on additional Shock damage and a slightly more damaging (not really though since weíre discounting Claws of Decay) spammable melee attack, you gain Death Field, which is more than worth it.

BUT WAKALORD YOU ARE LOSING OUT ON SO MUCH BURST I WANT SHOCK TO DO MASSIVE DAMAGE AND VOLTAIC SLASH HAS A COOL ANIMATION!!!!1!!

Though your Shock is weaker, if you add in the 25% crit damage from Thrash and the extremely hard hitting (internal damage and it hits up to 3 people!!!) Death Field, youíll find that you do far more overall damage. Of course, damage isnít everything, especially in these boring objective based warzones where all you need to do is ram your junk into a nodeÖ.But uh I digress. Your single target burst is more or less the same. Actually, factoring in various cooldowns, your damage is essentially better. Having an additional high-damaging ability makes your burst far less predictible, something that is MASSIVELY undervalued in this game. Death Field can catch people in stealth (important since Overload is currently bugged and doesnít seem to do it half the damn time), hit multiple people, is a 30m ability and at worst, does pretty much the same damage (usually more) overall than Shock. And as noted, Claws of Decay Thrash will trump Voltaic Slash in all but the most drawn out fights. But really, if your goal is to do sustained damage, play Madness. Deception is about burst and this hybrid is simply better than full Deception, regardless of burst or sustained damage. As an added bonus, the force management is great. 23 force Thrash may seem like an inconsequential difference than 25 force Thrash, but it really adds up. And the lower cost of Shock? After Induction it basically costs nothing. It seems small but is hugely important and very noticeable over full Deception.


Madness 3/7/31
Inferior to Madness Sorcerers in most ways. Largely due to the fact that Sorcerers simply have more range. Basically, Madness assassins have three advantages over Sorcerers: Taunts, Stealth and some actual bursty abilities (Maul, Assassinate). If you play this spec, you damn well better make good use of these three things. This is literally the squishiest spec in the game and if the enemy team has half a brain theyíll abuse the living hell out of that fact. Madness assassins are workable, but require some changes courtesy of Bioware if theyíre to ever be on the same level as their Sorcerer counterparts.

Pre-1.4 standard was 8/3/31 for Force Speed cooldown. Now you should run 3/7/31 instead. 15 second Force Speed will help your kiting. You don't need anything in second tier of Darkness tree. Avoidance is a very good talent so take it.


Arika 0/14/27

The old Arika hybrid, with one point in Darkswell because itís really, really good and you should take it. The only thing this spec really has over 0/27/14 is instant whirlwind, 10% bonus melee damage and a harder hitting death field/thrash crit. Of all of these, instant Whirwind is the only really important loss. But in its stead we get 50% bonus crit damage on Shock and Discharge (as opposed to much less impressive 20% and 25% Death Field and Thrash, respectively), low slash, lower cd force cloak/blackout, 10 more force, essentially a persistent 6% damage reduction in entropic field and a some force regeneration/discharge damage that doesnít really matter but whatever.

Thatís a lot of stuff to give up for what basically amounts to instant Whirlwind. Donít get me wrong, instant Whirlwind is absolutely amazing but if you really want great team utility and cc just go play 23/1/17. Certainly not an unplayable spec, but largely outclassed by my 0/27/14.

Full Deception 2/31/8

Basically anything that is full deception. While the deception tree finally received some much needed buffs, most all of them were in the lower portions of the tree (the voltaic slash buff not disappearing after using Shock is great for pve but much more niche and unreliable in pvp). The new Spike slow talent isnít bad but certainly not essential. Would you rather have a brief slow that wonít matter since youíll just get hard ccíd during its duration, or would you rather have death field? YeahÖ

There are lots of variations on this spec that people like. 8/31/3 was largely used pre 1.4 for the Force Speed cooldown. It is entirely obsolete now. 0/33/8 lets you get the Spike slow, but as explained above in my thoughts on 1.4 changes, it isnít really worth it. If youíre running full Deception Iíd advise 2/31/08. Iím assuming that since you are running full Deception you really like Voltaic Slash, so you might as well take the talent in Darkness that buffs its damage.

Mad Maul 0/14/27
Looks similar to Arika but plays very differently. Lightening Charge and you get Raze. There's a stupid argument in the first few pages of this topic where I explain why I think this is a bad DPS spec. While in theory in can pull decent numbers the setup takes too long against good players. This spec tries to burst and do good sustained damage. Wakajinn and full Deception do the burst thing better and full Madness crushes this thing in terms of sustained damage. And I can not stress this enough: the setup is insurmountably long. Avoid this spec.

Tl;dr on specs

23/1/17
Run full DPS gear. Best spec for overall team support and utility. Also does good damage. Best node guarder in game. Due to mix of great cc, damage and survivability this is the spec all assassins should strive to learn first and due to its great supporting abilities, it is the best spec for undergeared players.

31/1/9
Run tank gear. Full tank spec, very useful for peeling/spamming slow+damage debuff. Standard methods of playing a tank apply. 31/10/0 can also work in some situations.

0/27/14
Best overall spec for dps. Exceptional single target burst, enough sustained damage to remain competitive next to other melee dps. Adequate node guard, great fray fighter, nigh-peerless duelist.

3/7/31
Largely outclassed by Sorcerer counterpart, but still workable if you desperately want to play it.




How to play 0/27/14. (There are already plenty of resources for rotations and stuff in older guides and they still stand true. Given that this is the only new spec that is worthwhile, it is the only one I will be discussing in depth at the moment). Regardless, many of the ideas here could be applied to full Deception (with some obvious slight adjustments) and really, PvP in general. Have at it.

Basically, your rotation goes like this:
Death Field
2x Induction Shock
Discharge*
Assassinate
Exploit Weakness Maul
Thrash
Saber Strike

*While normally such a hard hitting ability would have higher priority, in most cases Death Field and Shock will do comparable damage. Therefore, we hold off on Discharge in hopes that we can gain a stack or two of Static Charges to compensate for the delayed use of the ability.
This is all variable. If, for example, you need to do some immediate burst, you can use Shock without Induction. You ideally want to use Maul right before Exploit Weakness expires so youíll reacquire the buff again shortly after use, but sometimes you just need to rip apart a squishy freecaster ASAP, so it could be used sooner. And so on so fourth. Just donít play like a retard. Oh, and make sure you know what everything in the game does. If a Sentinel uses Pacify on you, donít waste your time using weapon damage attacks-just kite him and useÖ.you know, not weapon damage attacks.

Oh, and this rotation obviously doesnít really apply to small encounters/duels. For example, I tend to Spike into Maul, exploit weakness or not, against Sentinels before they Pacify me, simply because Iíll largely be kiting until it wears off and wonít be expending as much Force as I would if I were spamming melee stuff. Similar situations occur when dueling other classes, it all just depends. I canít stress this enough-be adaptive.

Throw in CC accordingly. Combat Sentinel rooting you with Master Strike while youíre Pacified? Use Overload. Did your rival assassin just pop force shroud? Use low slash (donít break the stun, wait out the duration), youíll effectively waste his entire defensive cooldown. Is that obnoxious sage freecasting and you need him out of the fight but he keeps interrupting your whirlwind? Use low slash into whirlwind. It will give him full resolve unlike a straight up whirlwind, but hey, canít have it all. A marauder pop undying rage and he has full resolve? Donít waste your recklessness buff by Discharging him for 50 damage-use force slow and kite him until it ends. Again, just play logically and donít act like a complete retard. Itís really quite simple. This basic idea in this paragraph applies to pretty much every class/spec in this game, really.

This spec can be used for a variety of purposes. Due to its incredibly strong dueling potential against most every spec in the game it is a decent node guarder. However, most enemies that try to ninja capped you will be stealthed, and if you happen to get caught by a good concealment operative/ any assassin you could really be in trouble. As such, while this spec is an okay defender, darkness based specs still get the job done much more safely. This spec truly shines at good old fashioned dps. While youíll still be very squishy in a sustained encounter (hey, you canít have Blackout up always) it really isnít any different for Marauders. Your tanks should be guard swapping to you when necessary and hopefully your healers know how toÖWell, heal. Due to Death Field AoE youíll be racking up quite a bit of damage and youíll still have a massive amount of single target burst and CC to shut down priority targets whenever needed.

While this spec makes for an excellent skirmish fighter, it truly shines when attempting to ninja cap a node. Played correctly you can 1v1 literally any spec in the game (I tend to have most trouble against darkness-based assassins, but only the absolute best. And even then, I still am more than capable of winning). You burst fast and have a lot of CC-youíre more than capable of soloing a defender and capping a node. Against top-tier teams you probably wonít be able to outright kill the defender but you should be able to divert 1-2 people to the off node, which is plenty worth it.

Attempting to explain the intricacies (I use the term rather loosely, as in all honesty this is a pretty simple game lol) of dueling every class isnít worth my time and will go over most peopleís heads so Iíll just say this about trying to solo cap a node: Defenders are usually stealthers. And usually assassins. If they try to Force Cloak you can bet they will try to sap you and heal up. If your CC break is down you can not let this happen. So, the second they stealth, use Overload in the direction they were in. On the chance that they wonít be instantly destealthed (damn Overload bug), and Death Field is on cooldown, use Mass Mind Control. While taunts donít destealth a person, they will be put back into combat for a time and will be unable to sap you. This is more reliable than spamming Lacerate hoping to hit the target-because usually you wonít. At the very least, AoE taunting someone who has vanished will buy you some time to reorient and hopefully stop you from getting sapped.

Itemizing (for 0/27/14 and basically any non Madness-based DPS spec)

Here's my gear: https://swtor.askmrrobot.com/charact...0-87629819264a

Set bonus should be Stalker for Deception/23/1/17 hybrid. Madness specs want Force Master. Willpower is a means to an end. More specifically, a means to getting crit. Power gives you more overall damage, so you only want to get Willpower as a means of getting your crit to a certain percentage. While deception is largely crit based (without having anything to boost crit chance unlike most other dps specs zzz) you donít want to completely itemize for crit because in the end your overall damage will suffer.

You want about 75% Surge. Deception is largely crit-based so Surge is very important. 75% is the soft cap and thus, going over gives you diminishing returns. So go to about 75%, pretty simple.

30% crit chance is less of a mathematical thing and more just a fine balance that's been fine tuned by myself and most other good assassins. We're playing a crit based spec, and while it may seem like a good idea to just itemize for the crit hard cap, it doesn't really work that way. Sure, you'll crit more with 40% and in a sustained encounter you will certainly be critting a lot more often. But in the smaller skirmishes/focus bursting this spec excels in, you won't really be attacking as much. Therefore, while you will still crit more often, your damage over a shorter period of time will be much lower. If you're a super lucky person sure, give it a shot I guess. But trust me, it won't be worth it for most people.



As Deception is more martially based than other assassin specs you might want some accuracy. 96.90% may seem like a lot, but what other options do we have if we don't want to waste points on surge? Just take some accuracy enhancements, it's better than wasting one of the main enhancements stats for some more power.


Also, I havenít yet gotten fully Elite War Heroíd. Given how miniscule the stat boost is on the mods/enhancements (+1 statÖwtf) I am instead dedicating my commendations to perfecting my incomplete tanking set.

Important note

Donít use lightsaber crystals with black cores. They arenít canon (no I donít care about the darksaber) and look stupid and ugly and Iíll tunnel vision you in warzones if that happens then may god have mercy on your soul :B


If you have any questions/comments/concerns feel free to message me in game or in this topic. I will do my best to respond to any inquiries you guys have regarding assassins/PvP/ToR in a prompt and informative manner. As long as it isnít something stupid a quick Google.com search couldnít answer, anyways.

Responses to this topic would be greatly appreciated and stuff thanks for reading hopefully Iíll have made a difference-aka I wonít continue to see 14k assassins running deception and hard casting Crushing Darkness like omg stop doing that.

This is Party Time Wakalord Flexguildmaster signing out may the force be with you


Changelog (notable additions only)
11/4/12 - Added armory. Added names to every spec. Elaborated on full tank spec. Added Mad Maul spec.

11/23/12 - Juggernaut and Assassin dueling video guides added.

12/31/12 - Marauder dueling video guide added.

1/5/13 - Six hour reg wz video added.
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
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Quote: Originally Posted by Celsus
Nobody will get banned. Being a sub is like being white in the 60's, you're untouchable.

TrakonBazzaak's Avatar


TrakonBazzaak
10.26.2012 , 04:19 PM | #2
Excellent write up for noobs and vets alike.

+1
It may be nobody wants to be heroes except when it doesn't count, when it isn't challenging, that people would rather fight "pretend evil" than the real thing, but I don't personally believe that. I still think people are better than that.
Raph Koster

CBRGhostRider's Avatar


CBRGhostRider
10.26.2012 , 04:48 PM | #3
Quote:
On the chance that they wonít be instantly destealthed (gosh darn Overload bug), and Death Field is on cooldown, use Mass Mind Control. While taunts donít destealth a person, they will be put back into combat for a time and will be unable to sap you.
Wow! I did not realize that.. learn something new everyday.

Great guide, and while I haven't tried your spec I probably will one of these days, when I get bored with deception.
Spoiler

Kreaz's Avatar


Kreaz
10.27.2012 , 01:12 AM | #4
The Wakajinn spec is legit !
Ninjastyle-100-ShadowUrb‚n-90-GuardianKreaz-90-SorcererOwnzu-70-Juggernaut
www.youtube.com/tehkreaz

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.27.2012 , 03:08 AM | #5
When I first started reading this I was initially disagreeing with alot of what you were saying but I do appreciate the detail you used because I found that I did learn a thing or two. It is quite obvious that you have spent some time as 23-1-17 and 0-27-14. But I don't agree with everything you said about the other specs.

As far as 23-1-17, everything thing you said was 100% right on, you said it much better than I ever could. This is a utility spec and is designed to maximize as much utility that the Assassin can pump out. One thing you forgot to mention (probably because its too obvious) was to always use your Maul on an EW proc as this is your only real burst ability. Thrash by itself is more damage than Thrash/Shock (even energized), the only exception is when you have Recklessness available.

As far as the Arika (0-14-27) I have some questions for you. I felt you put this spec down alot and used its negatives to support the positives from your spec. You claim that your spec does way more damage than Arika's but there are a few things that you left out from this spec that have huge impact on how this spec plays. Lets start by comparing the Discharges. Your Discharge from Surging Charge is good for 4k-5k damage when it crits, which is pretty damn good for an instant ability. The Discharge from Arika's spec is good for 4k damage (with 2-3 dot cirts out of 8 ticks) every single cast, and its spammable. Arika's Discharge will do 10 times the damage of your Discharge through out any WZ. Unearthed Knowledge offers about 5% more overall damage to Maul, Thrash, and Assassinate. That does not sound like much, but it is definitely better. DF will crit 20% harder, again not alot, but better. Even though your Shock is gimped a bit by not going full Deception, your Shock is definitely better with 50% crit bonus and 50% reduced force cost, as Arika specced I would only be using this during my Dark Embrace buff to apply UK. The Main thing you left out though was the Raze procs, pretty big. I think you can appreciate how powerful this ability is, and it is safe to say that it again trumps your Shock. 6% damage mitigation is a very sexy talent, and the increased survivability is definitely a win for your spec. The Arika has some healing back, granted probably not going to make a difference in a 1v1, but I still rake in 15k-30k healing in a WZ with it. Now lets look at instant Whirlwind vrs Low Slash, both are basically mezzes that break on damage. Instant Whirlwind has a 30m range and lasts 8 seconds with a 2 second stun if broken. The bad thing is its on a long 1min cooldown. Low Blow is only 4 seconds and only used with in 4m, but does some pretty sexy damage as well as very short Cool down. I would personally give this one a tie, picking either of these is a win. They are both very nice abilities.

I have really tried to dig down and support your claim here but I just do not see how your spec can do more damage or even out burst the Arika spec. To recap, Arika has a much better Discharge, 5% better damage with all standard melee attacks, little bit better DF and Raze proc Crushing Darkness is way better than Shock. How do you figure that your spec can do more damage when every single one of your abilities you have, Arika spec can do better.

Ive heard that even full Deception can out burst Arika, but I beg to differ. Open up with DF, Dishcharge and Shock (for UK), then Thrash spam till you get Raze and EW procs, its soooo much damage. And if this rotation takes them below 30%, well all Assassins know how sexy it gets from there.

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.27.2012 , 03:28 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Xethis View Post
Lets start by comparing the Discharges. Your Discharge from Surging Charge is good for 4k-5k damage when it crits, which is pretty damn good for an instant ability. The Discharge from Arika's spec is good for 4k damage (with 2-3 dot cirts out of 8 ticks) every single cast, and its spammable. Arika's Discharge will do 10 times the damage of your Discharge through out any WZ.
Um, you do realize Arika spec doesn't run lightening charge...right? So it doesn't do more damage...And you don't get Raze lol. That stuff is noted in my linked skill tree.

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That does not sound like much, but it is definitely better. DF will crit 20% harder, again not alot, but better.
Really, you're gonna take 20% crit over 50% crit on Shock (which has a very short cd compared to Death Field) and Discharge?

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The Main thing you left out though was the Raze procs, pretty big
Also nonexistent, Raze only procs on things affected by Lightening Discharge, which Arika doesn't use. If you think Arika should/can run Lightening Charge you're just wrong on a whole other level.

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Arika has some healing back, granted probably not going to make a difference in a 1v1, but I still rake in 15k-30k healing in a WZ with it.
Death Field heal is basically worthless without speccing into Devour which you won't do unless you are full Madness. Irrelevant.

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Instant Whirlwind has a 30m range and lasts 8 seconds with a 2 second stun if broken. The bad thing is its on a long 1min cooldown. Low Blow is only 4 seconds and only used with in 4m, but does some pretty sexy damage as well as very short Cool down. I would personally give this one a tie, picking either of these is a win. They are both very nice abilities.
Low Slash fills MUCH less resolve, does some damage and has a quarter the cooldown. Not a tie.

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I have really tried to dig down and support your claim here but I just do not see how your spec can do more damage or even out burst the Arika spec. To recap, Arika has a much better Discharge, 5% better damage with all standard melee attacks, little bit better DF and Raze proc Crushing Darkness is way better than Shock. How do you figure that your spec can do more damage when every single one of your abilities you have, Arika spec can do better.
Arika's Discharge does 50% LESS crit damage. Arika's shock does 50% LESS crit damage. Arika doesn't use Raze and thus, never uses Crushing Darkness.

So basically, you get 20% crit damage on Death Field and a paltry melee bonus. And it misses out on huge crit damage on Shock/Discharge, Low Slash, 10 extra force, 30% AoE damage reduction, more or less 6% flat damage reduction, Low Slash, Saber Conduit regen and Static Charges. NOT WORTH IT
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raginpineapple
10.27.2012 , 10:36 PM | #7
nice work <3

Lily

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Xethis
10.28.2012 , 02:49 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
Um, you do realize Arika spec doesn't run lightening charge...right? So it doesn't do more damage...And you don't get Raze lol. That stuff is noted in my linked skill tree.


Really, you're gonna take 20% crit over 50% crit on Shock (which has a very short cd compared to Death Field) and Discharge?


Also nonexistent, Raze only procs on things affected by Lightening Discharge, which Arika doesn't use. If you think Arika should/can run Lightening Charge you're just wrong on a whole other level.


Death Field heal is basically worthless without speccing into Devour which you won't do unless you are full Madness. Irrelevant.


Low Slash fills MUCH less resolve, does some damage and has a quarter the cooldown. Not a tie.


Arika's Discharge does 50% LESS crit damage. Arika's shock does 50% LESS crit damage. Arika doesn't use Raze and thus, never uses Crushing Darkness.

So basically, you get 20% crit damage on Death Field and a paltry melee bonus. And it misses out on huge crit damage on Shock/Discharge, Low Slash, 10 extra force, 30% AoE damage reduction, more or less 6% flat damage reduction, Low Slash, Saber Conduit regen and Static Charges. NOT WORTH IT
Wow, I never knew that the Arika spec was used with Surging Charge, sorry I missed that. I guess I saw the spec and just assumed it was ran in Lightning Charge. In that case your spec is miles ahead of the Arika spec, and I apologize for questioning your opinion on the Arika spec. And the more I think about the Arika spec being run in Surging Charge the more I wonder why this spec was ever utilized by anyone, seems like alot of wasted points just to get Death Field crits.

I guess the spec that I have been using for pvp and pve is the Mad Maul spec, coined by Sookster. Its a Madness rotation only your Mauls hit really really hard. So I do apologize for the misunderstanding and I did not mean to discredit you by any means.

I do stand firmly though that I think the Mad Maul spec (0-14-27)(in Lightning Charge) can still put out quite a bit more dps than your spec. I will explain why, ability vrs ability.

First, Discharge in Lighting Charge is significantly more damage than the Discharge from Surging Charge, its been proven many times.

Second, you compared your Shock to my Death Field based on the last few points spent in each tree. You claimed that it is far more beneficial to have 50% crit on Shock than it is to have 20% on DF. Based off the actual talent points spend then you would be correct. But with my current stats my DF will crit for 3941. And if I add 50% crit to my current Shock it only crits for 3803. There are other factors to these abilities that need to be taken into consideration other than the possible damage they can pump out. You did mention that Shock is on a 6 second cd and will be used more frequently, you are correct. However DF hits mulitple targets and at range and increases my dot damage from Discharge and Raze. It is pretty hard to tell which one will actually do more damage over time. But personally I think these two abilities aren't the ones that need to be compared to each other.

Third, in all honesty I believe the ability used by Mad Maul that more closely is compared to your Shock is my Raze. As far as frequency they are used about as much, you need two stacks of Induction, I have a 50% proc off of an ability. My first Raze proc most of the time will proc with in my first two Thrash's. As far as frequency during a fight we will both average two on just about every encounter. And just like with Discharge, it has been proven time and time again that Raze is more damage than Shock even with your 50% crit bonus.

Fourth, your added damage mitigation vrs my heals. 6% extra damage mitigation is much better than 1% chance heals on a 1v1 hands down. The heals however can pull ahead in a long drawn out battle where my dots can be spread around and I am constantly getting 1% back from roughly 35% of my dot ticks. In the end I still believe that you will mitigate more damage over all than I will heal so you definitely win this round.

Fifth, our utility, Low Blow vrs instant Whirlwind. All the points you made were solid. Low Blow can be used far more frequently with far less affect on resolve. So on a single target or a duel Low Blow will be more beneficial. However our Electrocute was knocked down to 10m and in your current spec you have 0 skills that can stop a third party healer, or a BH/Trooper unloading on you from range. You have to eat it, I don't. I stand firmly that these two abilities are equal to each other given that each are used for completely different scenarios.

Recap, each of my abilities hit harder than yours. My Discharge is far more damage than yours. My Raze does more damage than your Shock. My DF crits 20% harder and ups my dot damage. Maul, Assassinate, and Thrash do about 5% more damage than yours. You are harder to kill, and we both have some nice utility.

Your spec does sound very appealing and I will definitely give it a try. I might come back to this post in a week or so completely changing my views lol. You should do the same, I think you might have a very nice surprise to see how bursty Mad Maul can actually be.

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.28.2012 , 03:25 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Xethis View Post
seems like alot of wasted points just to get Death Field crits.
It is. Which is why my spec is better because you can take good talents to get Shock/Discharge crits (two abilities critting harder is much better than one critting less hard)

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I guess the spec that I have been using for pvp and pve is the Mad Maul spec, coined by Sookster. Its a Madness rotation only your Mauls hit really really hard. So I do apologize for the misunderstanding and I did not mean to discredit you by any means.
I know what the spec is and breaking Madness and not getting Creeping Terror isn't worth more Maul damage. You lose out on a root (essential in Huttball/in general as it doesn't fill any resolve) for the ability to inconsistently do some more Maul damage.

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First, Discharge in Lighting Charge is significantly more damage than the Discharge from Surging Charge, its been proven many times.
Factoring in crits and the fact that Surging Discharge is internal damage, it isn't significantly more. More? Yes. But for a burst spec no. And if you don't want to worry about having major burst then just play full Madness.

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Second, you compared your Shock to my Death Field based on the last few points spent in each tree. You claimed that it is far more beneficial to have 50% crit on Shock than it is to have 20% on DF. Based off the actual talent points spend then you would be correct. But with my current stats my DF will crit for 3941.
You're hitting some very undergeared players if your Death Field crits for that much. Given that this guide aims to help at the highest level of gameplay, that is an unrealistic number. And I have the math to back it up. Let's say Death Field's base damage is about 2,000 and you have 75% surge. Factoring mitigation you will be critting most classes for several hundred less. And sure, your death field crits are great and it is internal damage, but having Shock/Discharge crits that hit for as much while still having Death Field as an ability severely outclasses your spec and will outdamage it.

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Third, in all honesty I believe the ability used by Mad Maul that more closely is compared to your Shock is my Raze. As far as frequency they are used about as much, you need two stacks of Induction, I have a 50% proc off of an ability. My first Raze proc most of the time will proc with in my first two Thrash's. As far as frequency during a fight we will both average two on just about every encounter. And just like with Discharge, it has been proven time and time again that Raze is more damage than Shock even with your 50% crit bonus.
Setup for all this stuff takes too long, explained below. In theory it can do comparable damage, in application it doesn't work out against good players.

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Fourth, your added damage mitigation vrs my heals. 6% extra damage mitigation is much better than 1% chance heals on a 1v1 hands down. The heals however can pull ahead in a long drawn out battle where my dots can be spread around and I am constantly getting 1% back from roughly 35% of my dot ticks. In the end I still believe that you will mitigate more damage over all than I will heal so you definitely win this round.
This arguement pertains more to Madness as a full spec anyways, which will obviously have some okay self-healing in a sustained encounter. But it is still jack **** compared to 6% damage reduction, 25% damage reduction from Blackout and lower cd on Force Cloak. So yes, I do win this round. Thoroughly.

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Fifth, our utility, Low Blow vrs instant Whirlwind. All the points you made were solid. Low Blow can be used far more frequently with far less affect on resolve. So on a single target or a duel Low Blow will be more beneficial. However our Electrocute was knocked down to 10m and in your current spec you have 0 skills that can stop a third party healer, or a BH/Trooper unloading on you from range. You have to eat it, I don't. I stand firmly that these two abilities are equal to each other given that each are used for completely different scenarios.
This just isn't really an issue at all, having nothing to do to stop healers or BHs is just plain wrong so I don't really know how to respond. I can't even really give an example. Even in high level PvP against the best guilds on my server this just doesn't happen. I deal with it just fine. And if you wanted better control from range Darkness hybrid with Pull or full Madness are better anyways so I really, really don't see your point.

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Your spec does sound very appealing and I will definitely give it a try. I might come back to this post in a week or so completely changing my views lol. You should do the same, I think you might have a very nice surprise to see how bursty Mad Maul can actually be.
I've already tried your spec and many variants of it. In a sustained encounter you are sacrificing Creeping Terror for some more Maul damage. That is really, really terrible. In any small skirmish it takes way too long to set up. You need to Death Field for deathmarks, Discharge for dots, Shock for increased damage and then Thrash/Maul for Raze procs. All that crap takes WAY too long against ANYONE with half a brain and you will be dead thrice over before it works. In theory your spec can work and I realized this before 1.4 hit, but in application it is just impossible to set up. I can not emphasize this enough-the setup is far too unrealistic. And even if it did work, you need to reapply all the stuff for every new focus target. TAKES WAY TOO LONG either run full Madness and do your support/sustained DPS or play a burst. Trying to get the best of both worlds just makes you mediocre at both.

No offense, but if you have success using this you're just fighting bad players who aren't taking advantage of your ridiculously long setup.

p.s. while some light theorycrafting and spec discussion is all well and good, trying to argue your spec over mine when you openly admit to not having even tried my spec (much less extensively played with both for weeks at a time like I have) yet is really not a good idea. at all
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Watch my stream!
Quote: Originally Posted by Celsus
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Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.28.2012 , 04:37 PM | #10
Feels like you are just blindly defending your position because you were offended that I did not agree with your assessment on the best spec ever. Since you want to quote and flame everything I say, I think I might do the same. For a smart guy you sure do say alot of stupid things.
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
I know what the spec is and breaking Madness and not getting Creeping Terror isn't worth more Maul damage. You lose out on a root (essential in Huttball/in general as it doesn't fill any resolve) for the ability to inconsistently do some more Maul damage.
It is definitely more damage. If you take Creeping Terror out of your rotation you gain a global, that global is going to be filled by another Thrash 95% of the time. The extra Thrash combined with the increased crit damage from Maul is consistently more damage than a full Madness build. Ive parsed this many times and every single time the Mad Maul spec comes out 50-100 dps more than a full Madness spec. Try it for yourself. Secondly, I am not just trading Creeping Terror for increased Maul, I am also trading for Darkswell which is the only reason that Mad Maul can be successful in pvp. Yes, increased Maul and Darkswell are miles above a mediocre dot. Lastly on this subject you make a claim that upping my cirt damage on Maul by 30% is inconsistent damage increase, even though your spec completely revolves around inconsistent damage increase with your Crackling Blast talent. Its ok for you, but for me its a bad decision?

Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
Factoring in crits and the fact that Surging Discharge is internal damage, it isn't significantly more. More? Yes. But for a burst spec no. And if you don't want to worry about having major burst then just play full Madness.
On average a Lightning Discharge dot will crit 2-3 times out of its 8 ticks, that accounts for 4k damage, Ive parsed this several times. Your Surging Discharge will crit for 4k-5k damage(depending on your static charge count) Which is barely more. Two thirds of those are going to do less than half of that. The majority of the time your Discharge will hit in the 2k range and has a long cooldown. Lightning Discharge is good for 4k damage every time and is spammable. How can you use any logic at all and still come up with the opinion that Surging Discharge is better is just beyond me.


Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
You're hitting some very undergeared players if your Death Field crits for that much. Given that this guide aims to help at the highest level of gameplay, that is an unrealistic number. And I have the math to back it up. Let's say Death Field's base damage is about 2,000 and you have 75% surge. Factoring mitigation you will be critting most classes for several hundred less. And sure, your death field crits are great and it is internal damage, but having Shock/Discharge crits that hit for as much while still having Death Field as an ability severely outclasses your spec and will outdamage it.
Those numbers were taken directly from the tooltip. I factored in what my damage would be with DF crit 2011X1.96 (76% surge+20%) equals 3941 that is before resistances or expertise. If I had the Crackling Blast talent Shock would crit for 1589X2.26 (76% surge + 50%) equals 3591, that is before armor mitigation. Shock hits a single target and is mitigated by armor and expertise so the number will be way less. DF hits 3 targets at range and is only mitigated by resistances and expertise. You are way off on your DF damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
Setup for all this stuff takes too long, explained below. In theory it can do comparable damage, in application it doesn't work out against good players.
This one made me laugh a bit. I do not see how Thrashing twice for a Raze proc is any different than you Thrashing Twice for 2 stacks of Induction. Even according to your own guide for this spec you open up with DF, Thrash Twice Shock then Discharge. I open up with DF also, the only difference is I Discharge up front then I Thrash for Raze. Technically I am one global behind you until you finally use your Discharge then we are both on par. Funny though cause like, about half the time my Raze procs on my first Thrash, and that gives me more burst than you cause I can use Crushing before you can Shock, lol. Seriously, quite often my initial DF and Discharge will proc my Exploit Weakness talent, and Maul can proc Raze. Almost half of my openers I get a hard hitting Maul and Raze before I even Thrash once, lol, long set up hahahaha!

Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
This arguement pertains more to Madness as a full spec anyways, which will obviously have some okay self-healing in a sustained encounter. But it is still jack **** compared to 6% damage reduction, 25% damage reduction from Blackout and lower cd on Force Cloak. So yes, I do win this round. Thoroughly.
I give you the nod on something and you flame me anyways. I also take advantage of Darkswell as much as possible so you talking about that 25% damage mitigation is pointless. Even with just one dot, I figure I get 2-3% health back every single time I cast Discharge, I also benefit from the health I get back from my Crushing ticks which if used with with Recklessness is usually 4-5 of those ticks at 1% each. It adds up plenty in long drawn out skirmishes.

Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
This just isn't really an issue at all, having nothing to do to stop healers or BHs is just plain wrong so I don't really know how to respond. I can't even really give an example. Even in high level PvP against the best guilds on my server this just doesn't happen. I deal with it just fine. And if you wanted better control from range Darkness hybrid with Pull or full Madness are better anyways so I really, really don't see your point.
You don't see my point? It isn't an issue? So if some one pops up 20m away and starts healing your target you just keep going? When a BH is casting Death From Above that is outside your 10m stun you just let him continue casting? You must have some awesome teammates that can take care of all those adds for you. If the ball carrier is 20m away and running away from you, you have absolutely 0 ways to stop them. You are a Terror inside of 10m, but out side of that you are completely useless, its only a matter of time before your team realizes they are stronger with out you. Having a 30m mez is absolutely amazing in pvp and the uses of this ability is countless. I even tried giving you the benefit of the doubt that Low Blow is equal to an instant Whirlwind but your trying so hard to discredit everything I say that you are not taking the time to think about what you say before you say it. To say that all the healers and ranged dps out side your 10m is not an issue and you deal with them just fine is just retarded. Keep sprinting to them one by one and let me know how that works out for ya.


Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
I've already tried your spec and many variants of it. In a sustained encounter you are sacrificing Creeping Terror for some more Maul damage. That is really, really terrible. In any small skirmish it takes way too long to set up. You need to Death Field for deathmarks, Discharge for dots, Shock for increased damage and then Thrash/Maul for Raze procs. All that crap takes WAY too long against ANYONE with half a brain and you will be dead thrice over before it works. In theory your spec can work and I realized this before 1.4 hit, but in application it is just impossible to set up. I can not emphasize this enough-the setup is far too unrealistic. And even if it did work, you need to reapply all the stuff for every new focus target. TAKES WAY TOO LONG either run full Madness and do your support/sustained DPS or play a burst. Trying to get the best of both worlds just makes you mediocre at both.
Again claiming my spec takes too long to set up is an outstanding indication that you obviously have not tried this spec out. Taking Creeping Terror out of the rotation is an increase to dps if you have Induction talents, you would know this if you actually parsed it. 50% proc rate is usually 2x to get it to proc. That means half the time it procs off of my first Thrash, reducing my set up below your beloved spec. How you figure that this spec has a long set up compared to you having to use 2x Thrashes for your Induction stacks is hilarious.

Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
No offense, but if you have success using this you're just fighting bad players who aren't taking advantage of your ridiculously long setup.
Offense taken, you are blindly defending your spec with out actually doing the math on the rotations of Mad Maul. We basically execute the same amount of globals in about 10 seconds, with basically the same abilities, and all of the Mad Maul abilities will hit harder than yours. You claim to have more burst but you don't, you have the same rotations with weaker abilities. Actually do the math bro.
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
p.s. while some light theorycrafting and spec discussion is all well and good, trying to argue your spec over mine when you openly admit to not having even tried my spec (much less extensively played with both for weeks at a time like I have) yet is really not a good idea. at all
Theory crafting and discussion is all good, until I questioned your spec and you started flaming me for some very valid points. Open your eyes and your mind will follow.