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The Trooper's Rank

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.31.2012 , 09:23 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
The writer himself steps in to say basically..."this is why we did it this way...so drop it..." and you're arguing with him?

I was in the NSA and served as a civilian analyst and field officer...want to know about high ranking briefings knowledge? I am certain I have seen far more than you have...it's off a tad for streamlining purposes...BUT NOT THAT BADLY. I think you would argue with a brickwall over the color of the bricks!

DROP. IT. ALREADY.

This thread needs someone to put a bullet in it and end the misery.
So what? Worked for the NSA. SO DID I. I was a 2621 Ground Electronic Warfare Signals Intelligence Analyst for the USMC. I was at the pointy end of the stick for NSA ops. So actually no you haven't.

For missions, i NEVER spoke to a General. I got handed an op through my detachment CO. Never spoke to Generals once. Infact only time i EVER spoke to a general was when i was field testing a new piece of equipment for my battalion in 2003. That and a deputy director NSA when a piece of equipment wasn't working right.

Other than that, NEVER spoke to generals. Hell barely even saw my battalion commander, or when i was on a MEU, i think i saw my MEU CO about 4 times, and never once concerning ops. So what you saw, is not how it is done in the field. That is what i have an issue with.

Many say Garza is hands on with Spec Forc. How many teams does she run? Can she be hands on ALL the time with that many squads. I know Havoc is supposed to be the best, but if she is going hands on with only 1 squad, then she's doing a MAJOR disservice to the rest of the troops under her command.

Sorry with how many squads she has in harms way doing jobs and what she'd REALLY have to keep track of, she realistically wouldn't have TIME cept for say a meet and greet in chapter 1, and i guess chapter two cause Supreme Commander was in on it, and I could see chapter 3 on corellia. But all the planets you go to, she didn't need to personally brief the team EVERY time.

What do you think staff officers are for? Really wish people who have NO clue on how military operates would say they do like they know something.

NSA...not how a military works.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
Finished: Trooper, Agent, Knight, Inquizitor

spencer_'s Avatar


spencer_
10.31.2012 , 10:32 PM | #52
I get what your saying, that the command structure feels off because of the dramatic liberties they have to take, and that the IA story does handle it better by having keeper delegate your briefings to the watchers, but I always felt that with the trooper, your being constantly briefed by the general has two main reasons.

1- You are essentially her personal wetworks squad. She uses you to get her goals achieved directly, quickly, and efficiently, without bothering with the support staff.

2- Her personality leaves her with crippling trust issues that don't allow her to let anyone else command you, even if they are relaying her orders.

That may not help you, but that's how I've always rationalized it to myself.

Spetulhu's Avatar


Spetulhu
10.31.2012 , 10:58 PM | #53
While the writer offered his thoughts already I do have a theory that could work too.

The Republic armed forces aren't all as well motivated and loyal as one would wish - there's corruption, incompetence and betrayal enough that every Rep character gets to see some of it. I guess many soldiers don't serve for the glory of the Republic but because it's a steady job with perks. In order to keep these people happy the forces are full of unnecessary officer positions, basically rewards for behaving well (and better chances to abuse power ofc). Better pay for the same job you were already doing.

EvilBieber's Avatar


EvilBieber
11.01.2012 , 07:19 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Slurmez View Post
I have no problem with black ops cells operating outside of the normal chain of command, thats pretty much standard in everyones army.

However I would say the trooper storyline was pretty weak and not enjoyable when compared to every other class quest.
Got to agree with this comment.

DashaAdair's Avatar


DashaAdair
11.01.2012 , 11:48 AM | #55
Mr. Boyd,

Thank you for the trooper story. I very much enjoyed it. So much so I have two level 50 Commandos and two Vanguards on the way.

For those that what the 101-5 treatment, a theater level staff can do things amazingly fast in the real world, but in game terms I would never want to sit through an operations brief, let alone do course of action development.

In this game I received task, purpose, and a shiny vehicle (metaphorically) to step into the action. I especially liked the missions where we could assign tasks to subordinates (I think there is a mini game of repeatable missions like Corellia in there somewhere.)

The real world is 1% heart pounding action and 99% hard, but relatively dull prep work. Which game do I want? I want to step into the action and kill bad guys, and have fun doing it. And I got a good story too.

Thank you.

Rangers lead the way.

x-Manta-x's Avatar


x-Manta-x
11.01.2012 , 03:11 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by spencer_ View Post
I get what your saying, that the command structure feels off because of the dramatic liberties they have to take, and that the IA story does handle it better by having keeper delegate your briefings to the watchers, but I always felt that with the trooper, your being constantly briefed by the general has two main reasons.

1- You are essentially her personal wetworks squad. She uses you to get her goals achieved directly, quickly, and efficiently, without bothering with the support staff.

2- Her personality leaves her with crippling trust issues that don't allow her to let anyone else command you, even if they are relaying her orders.

That may not help you, but that's how I've always rationalized it to myself.
Haven't played thru the entire storyline (just lvl 30 atm), but reading between the lines a bit I'd imagine Garza is on a bit of a chopping block herself. Maybe she only has the freedom to run ops with you and your rebuilt team. She wins with you or dies with you. Its possible that the senate and top brass of the military have stripped her staff and left her with just you (a recruit when you meet) as a last ditch effort to redeem her failure. Placing all the blame on her if it gets out - sounds like SOP for self serving diplomats.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.01.2012 , 10:12 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by Seelvir View Post
@ Captain_Lurker: I'm going to have to reject pretty much everything you said, but I will try to do so nicely

On the issue of not injecting real life - there already is real life injected. They don't use made up ranks, they use ranks that correlate to the real world. Additionally, the order of those ranks is not made up, but rather fits a real world perspective, where officers go from Lt to Capt to Maj, etc. Otherwise, Captains would be Generals and Generals would be Sergeants. Real life is already there. What we are trying to determine is how much real life should we be concerned about, or just how analogous the Republic Army is to the real world one. It already is somewhat analogous, so saying that we should not inject real life into the fantasy setting is, sorry, dumb. It's already there.
So you're bothered by ranks and some chain of command stuff that is not important to SWTOR, but you're ok with people running around with lighsabers and using the force to kill things, and traveling throughout the whole galaxy...OK. Dude. It's a game. Get over it.

Quote:
Second, how do you know that the Republic military does not have an officer school? Are you basing that on the fact that the Trooper gets promoted from an enlisted rank to an officer rank without attending an officer school? I admit that one really required me to suspend disbelief, but here's how I did: battlefield promotions have historically enabled enlisted men rise up to officer ranks. Normally a battlefield promotion requires a degree of urgency (ie. can't wait for an officer to be trained, or can't wait for an officer from somewhere else to be reassigned here), and that was distinctly missing in the Trooper's case. Maybe you're right, that there is no officer school. But I'd need to at least see some kind of wookiepedia link validating the lack of an officer school as being established somewhere in the chaos that is the EU. Otherwise, this is another assumption of yours that must be rejected.
The whole point of Havoc squad is that they're so ****** they don't need to go to officer school. Whether one exists or not is irrelevant.

Quote:
Your next point seems to be that the Republic military does not have a central authority. Again, this must be rejected. Just because the entity is called a "republic" does not mean it's military is some kind of United Nations peacekeeping force. Central authority stems from the Galactic Senate and the Supreme Chancellor. I agree it's confusing when member worlds of the Republic retain individuals who look and act like soverign leaders, but it's best to think of them as analogous to American state Governors, not as soverign heads of nation-states.
Except US governors cannot choose to leave the USA if they feel like it, whereas each member world in the Republic can. The member worlds ARE sovereign, and the Galactic Republic is pretty much a UN.

Quote:
Finally, I lied. There IS something about your post I do not reject. In stating that Havoc squads members' high-rank allows them to unilaterally commandeer local forces, I think you make an adequate point. In the real world, that sort of squad is a paramilitary outfit with a "do whatever you want and make the military boys do what you say" slip signed by the president. In the game, though, we see in multiple interactions with the SIS that they seem to rely on Republic military assets to do the dirty work, and I guess Garza's SpecForces division sort of fills the niche of a paramilitary squad without the ambiguities of the "para" part of the term.
Let me ask you this, is there a rule or something that says a General or anyone of an equivalent rank CANNOT personally give orders to a squad leader? I mean if there isn't any such rule, then we can simply just assume General Garza is one of those people that really just likes to do things herself, and is why she gives orders to Havoc squad personally.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.01.2012 , 10:22 PM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by BanPearson View Post
hello,

I have a huge problem with the concept of class quests in general. That they are very linear and choices don't matter, and the player always is the big hero there, which is a contradiction to the world as a hole. I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of Havoc squad leaders in the world (as many as there are SWTOR players who played the trooper class story), which makes no sense. One essential rule in role playing is not to try to play the big super-hero/defeater of the emperor or whatever, and that means for role players that they have to think of their class quest as a whole different game with a different person than anything else they do while role playing with others or doing OPs. Just to make clear where I stand on the class quest concept in swtor in general.

But within these given limitations, you did a great job on the trooper story. Someone who picks a trooper will certainly expect and want a little (!!!) less Star Wars than a Jedi Knight player, and a tiny little dose of Mass Effect to fill that hole. It's a wonderful story, every bit of it, and the logical problems that have been pointed out are true, but they were necessary to fit it in the general class quest line concept. Well done! And I played it twice, even though I have only 3 characters.
Star Wars is all about being a hero and saving the day, so why would you expect a game based of SW to be any different?

Spoiler

amaresch's Avatar


amaresch
11.02.2012 , 08:16 AM | #59
It's a time of war, death and other casualties occur and all military slots can't be filled by what the book says to do in a perfect world. So, you fill your special teams with people who are best suited to the task. In this case, your character who is a Major is needed to guide this small team instead of being a staff wienie. Overqualified for the job? Probably. Best person for the job? Most likely. This game wouldn't be as fun if your characters only missions are to keep the beverage canister filled for General Garza's meetings and typing up those meeting notes.

BanPearson's Avatar


BanPearson
11.02.2012 , 08:51 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Spoiler
Exactly what I'm talking about. I did the same thing, and later (after the 1.2-patch), I got an invitation from her to catch up. We met on Coruscant and had sex. Same with every single "decision" - it's more like a shooter, where the fights are mine, but the story is a movie.
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Star Wars is all about being a hero and saving the day, so why would you expect a game based of SW to be any different?
The movies have 10, max 20 big heroes. TOR has millions. While I don't have the problems with the logic of the story itself that others have, I can't get it into my head that there are hundreds of thousands of other havoc squad leaders, or hundreds of thousands of other Jedi knights who defeated the emperor (or whoever that is; never played one). And when I meet with other players for role playing, I can't use the single player story as my background story and have to make up something entirely different (there's even a rule about that somewhere).

But at least they did it well. The scene from your spoiler is great, and all the little things. Like Elara getting grumpy when I played a female trooper and flirted with that agent. "Sir, we can discuss non mission-critical issues later."