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The Trooper's Rank

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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.24.2012 , 08:24 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by AlyxDinas View Post
Applying real life military ranking systems to Star Wars is like using real life science to try to explain it's technology. Pointless.
They already did. Go to Ord Mantell and just outside the front door is the Republic Military chain lore object and guess what. There's a military chain of command. So they have already done so. Saying it's pointless is actually pointless.
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HellbirdIV's Avatar


HellbirdIV
10.24.2012 , 08:44 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
They already did. Go to Ord Mantell and just outside the front door is the Republic Military chain lore object and guess what. There's a military chain of command. So they have already done so. Saying it's pointless is actually pointless.
It's a list of the military ranks, not a chain of command. They're very different things.

Captain_Lurker's Avatar


Captain_Lurker
10.24.2012 , 09:30 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Seelvir View Post
@ Captain_Lurker: I'm going to have to reject pretty much everything you said, but I will try to do so nicely
Well Seelvir if I gave darn about what you think then I would be devastated, but since I dont and you lack any support to your opinion then I dont give a darn...

Quote:
On the issue of not injecting real life - there already is real life injected. They don't use made up ranks, they use ranks that correlate to the real world. Additionally, the order of those ranks is not made up, but rather fits a real world perspective, where officers go from Lt to Capt to Maj, etc. Otherwise, Captains would be Generals and Generals would be Sergeants. Real life is already there. What we are trying to determine is how much real life should we be concerned about, or just how analogous the Republic Army is to the real world one. It already is somewhat analogous, so saying that we should not inject real life into the fantasy setting is, sorry, dumb. It's already there.
FYI, although they use similar words, they dont use the same ranks. Does Garza command thousands of troops like a modern day General (per US military since most only seem to think that is the ONLY military to ever exist) or recieve the same exact wages and benefits? Nope, then they didnt translate the "exact definition" of General according to you. FYI Websters dictionary: General (noun) 1. a military officer ranking just above lieutenant general: also full general 2. a military officer ranking above colonel. Notice how the rank General has a more broad definition than the specific definition used by the US military?

Please broaden your knowledge and you might not be so offended that a fantasy world does not exist according to your narrow ideology based upon ONE existing military. Unless they created a unique language used through out the whole genre then they HAVE to borrow existing words, ideas, and sometimes definitions. Dont expect them though to only rely on a narrow definition set by you or others.

Quote:
Second, how do you know that the Republic military does not have an officer school? Are you basing that on the fact that the Trooper gets promoted from an enlisted rank to an officer rank without attending an officer school? I admit that one really required me to suspend disbelief, but here's how I did: battlefield promotions have historically enabled enlisted men rise up to officer ranks. Normally a battlefield promotion requires a degree of urgency (ie. can't wait for an officer to be trained, or can't wait for an officer from somewhere else to be reassigned here), and that was distinctly missing in the Trooper's case. Maybe you're right, that there is no officer school. But I'd need to at least see some kind of wookiepedia link validating the lack of an officer school as being established somewhere in the chaos that is the EU. Otherwise, this is another assumption of yours that must be rejected.
Besides the fact that during the Trooper story your character never stops for a while (typically years) to go to officer training school? Or you could check Garza's wookipedia entry: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Elin_Garza

Notice a lack of the mention of officer training? You could also check out Aric Jorgan: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aric_Jorgan

Again no mention of office training when transfered to Ord Mantell.

Can you name any officer training school in the Old Republic? There is never a mention of them, just where the trooper (and theoretically most troopers) recieved his training and starts our as a Sergeant.

Quote:
Your next point seems to be that the Republic military does not have a central authority. Again, this must be rejected. Just because the entity is called a "republic" does not mean it's military is some kind of United Nations peacekeeping force. Central authority stems from the Galactic Senate and the Supreme Chancellor. I agree it's confusing when member worlds of the Republic retain individuals who look and act like soverign leaders, but it's best to think of them as analogous to American state Governors, not as soverign heads of nation-states.
So who is Garza's superior? She recieves orders from the Supreme Chancelor, the Sentate, other Generals, and at the same time ignores them without any penalty. If there is an central authority then why does Ord Mantell have its own military? And Corellia have its own para-military (its really a military, but in the game you dont see the full extent) organization (CorSec)? If there is a central authority then why has it not been defined? If you look at the Old Republic you will notice that it IS much more like the UN then the US. Again most planets have their own military/security. When some planets are attacked all of the remaining planets are NOT required to send military units/support for its defense (you dont see CorSec on Ord Mantell, nor Ord Mantell soldiers on Corellia). Planets join and leave the Republic by the vote of their own peole, not by the approval of the Chancellor or the Senate. Some planets have their own laws that do not exist through out the rest of the Republic (Alderaan). One of the main themes is the difference between the Republic and the Sith Empire. The Republic is decentralized, independant.. The Sith Empire is centralized, orderly, and with very little autonomy given to planets.

Quote:
Quote: Originally Posted by AlyxDinas

Applying real life military ranking systems to Star Wars is like using real life science to try to explain it's technology. Pointless.

They already did. Go to Ord Mantell and just outside the front door is the Republic Military chain lore object and guess what. There's a military chain of command. So they have already done so. Saying it's pointless is actually pointless.
Are you saying that realy world militaries (especially the US which most are basing it on) are organized the same way? That the ranking goes Private, Specialist, Corporal, Sergeant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Colonel, General? In that exact order? Doesnt the US have 1st and 2nd Lieutenants? Lt Colonel, Lt Generals, Sgt Majors, Master Sergeants, numerous rankings of Specialist? The developers used terms that you might be familiar with and developed their own heirarchy for their fantasy world. Again, you are attempting to directly translate one military heirarchy to a fantasy world which the creators did not directly translate that one military's heirarchy.

I think one major flaw that people who complain about the Star Wars military is that they are only comparing it to the US or other modern militaries based off of the US military. It is quite possible that the creators/developers used an earlier military (and probably simplified it) heirarchy. I find more similiarities with the British Empire's military than modern militaries.

maxetius's Avatar


maxetius
10.24.2012 , 12:03 PM | #34
Does it matter? They GIVE the rank of GENERAL to the Jedi Knight. I don't think military rank structure means anything in the Republic. You can get promoted from 'some guy' to 'general' by another general if it suits him.

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.24.2012 , 03:47 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by maxetius View Post
Does it matter? They GIVE the rank of GENERAL to the Jedi Knight. I don't think military rank structure means anything in the Republic. You can get promoted from 'some guy' to 'general' by another general if it suits him.
Ok so they just toss anybody into a rank and them expect him to preform?

And who says you have to OCS to become an officer. Battlefield commissions. And In the Star Wars universe there are Officer schools. Han Solo, went to an imperial academy and was an Imp LT for a while till he got drummed out.

They do exist.

And just saying Garza is simply called general and there is no chain of command, do you know how a military fantasy or not would function? It WOULDN'T. When you have a rank structure, there IS a chain of command, can't have one without the other.

As far as paramilitary outfits, National Guard is almost considered paramiliatry, as are police forces. Do they not have rank structures and codes of conduct?

Again, if you all REALLY want to see how Spec Forces really operate and are effective, watch Act of Valor. GREAT showing of how Spec Forces CONCEPT SyFy or not work.

IMO you can't just take something like a Special Forces or a military chain of command and just say 'here's a general, reprort to him or her!" Can't just say "He's just called a Lieutenant" but when you play the trooper class you demand respect from lower ranking officers and enlisted.

A MILITARY CANNOT FUNCTION LIKE THAT NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT. Hell the UN peace keeper forces have a chain of command!

Pick any military, or para military from real life or fantasy and show me one that works without a chain of command? Do that then you can tell me the story makes ANY kind of sense. Till then the writers did a half a**ed job doing the story.
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Seelvir's Avatar


Seelvir
10.25.2012 , 06:49 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
Please broaden your knowledge and you might not be so offended that a fantasy world does not exist according to your narrow ideology based upon ONE existing military.
Okay, so I shouldn't base my opinion on how one military does it. Fine. In what military do squads of only 2-6 members receive mundane mission briefings and personnel bios from a general?

Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
Notice a lack of the mention of officer training?
Since you quoted me, then replied in a way that indicates you didn't even read what I said, I'm going to guess you're tolling here. I'll get in on the fun: I notice Garza's bio also doesn't mention whether she was born via the traditional method or if she's a highly sophistocated Borg design sent back in time to a galaxy far away to begin the assimilation of the Star Wars galaxy. By your logic, this is a legit question. Hmmm. On second thought, maybe we won't limit reasonable assumptions about how things work based on what's NOT in a brief bio.

It's more reasonable to assume that an officer school exists than it is reasonable to assume one doesn't. If you want to debate me on THAT point, then I concede you are much more skilled than am I at handicapping your logical capacity just to win an internet debate, and I'll let you have that one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
So who is Garza's superior? She recieves orders from the Supreme Chancelor, the Sentate, other Generals, and at the same time ignores them without any penalty. If there is an central authority then why does Ord Mantell have its own military? And Corellia have its own para-military (its really a military, but in the game you dont see the full extent) organization (CorSec)? If there is a central authority then why has it not been defined? If you look at the Old Republic you will notice that it IS much more like the UN then the US. Again most planets have their own military/security. When some planets are attacked all of the remaining planets are NOT required to send military units/support for its defense (you dont see CorSec on Ord Mantell, nor Ord Mantell soldiers on Corellia). Planets join and leave the Republic by the vote of their own peole, not by the approval of the Chancellor or the Senate. Some planets have their own laws that do not exist through out the rest of the Republic (Alderaan). One of the main themes is the difference between the Republic and the Sith Empire. The Republic is decentralized, independant.. The Sith Empire is centralized, orderly, and with very little autonomy given to planets.
What you are describing is much less akin to the UN than it is akin to the US military during the revolutionary and 1812 wars. A central authority (the federal government) runs a professional military, but each state has it's own militia force, and states join the union and leave it all the time. The reason you don't see the Chancellor getting all Abe Lincoln / Civil War on the planets leaving the Republic is because 1) there's a war with an external superpower to worry about, and 2) the planets leaving the Republic are not joining a collective rebel state ala the Confederacy against which a military might be mobilized. And the Republic military IS on Ord Mantell, trying to quell the rebellion. So I'll grant that the socio-political environment in the time period of TOR is not perfectly analogous to the present day US. However, all of this is ancillary to the point that the Republic Army is run by a strong central authority, and you seem to be saying it isn't. Why does Garza get away with doing whatever tf she wants? Who knows? I'm inclined to say it's because of poor story-telling, but that's just me.

Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
I find more similiarities with the British Empire's military than modern militaries.
Oh okay. I'm no military historian, so I'll just have to take your word for it that the British Empire would have Generals telling squads of 2-6 soldiers what to do, face-to-face, as a matter of course.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
10.25.2012 , 07:18 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
Besides the fact that during the Trooper story your character never stops for a while (typically years) to go to officer training school? Or you could check Garza's wookipedia entry: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Elin_Garza

Notice a lack of the mention of officer training? You could also check out Aric Jorgan: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aric_Jorgan

Again no mention of office training when transfered to Ord Mantell.

Can you name any officer training school in the Old Republic? There is never a mention of them, just where the trooper (and theoretically most troopers) recieved his training and starts our as a Sergeant.
You see this here is the reason why my Professors would fail me if I tried to cite a Wiki as a source in any of my Research papers. Jorgan mentions receiving Officer training on Coruscant durring the conversation when you first arrive.

Also as an explanation of why the Trooper doesn't go through Officer Training before getting Command of Havoc Squad, during a time of war and or crisis it is not unusual for even in the US Military for the best qualified person available to be promoted to the required rank for a specific position (in the active duty US Army we called it a Battlefield Promotion) and then complete the required courses after the fact. I have read quite a few factual historical military stories regarding the Vietnam and Korean Wars where Sergeants (NCO's in general not really E-5's) where promoted to fill Officer roles and then would go to OCS after they rotated back to the States. Also in my own time in the Military quite a few of the personnel in my own unit where be promoted to e-5 and e-6 without the required school before it was standard procedure to do so.

I think we can all agree that the Trooper story arc (all 3 chapters) are a time of Crisis that leads into a time of war.
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Captain_Lurker's Avatar


Captain_Lurker
10.26.2012 , 11:23 AM | #38
Well I think TalonVII, Seelvir, and SuperGrunt are missing (or I am not stating it well enough) about what seems to be the military training and advancement ideology in Star Wars. While there are Military Academies in Star Wars (as evident by both Old Republic and Original Trilogy) there does not seem to be SEPERATE academies or training for enlisted soldiers and officers. As TalonVII states Han Solo went to a Imperial Academy and was given the rank of Lieutenant on leaving. But TalonVII does not state is that Han Solo's friend Soontir Fel was in the same class and left the academy as... a TIE Fighter pilot (not an officer). It appears that in Star Wars there is no seperate training facilities for enlisted or officers. There seems to be no seperation of both untill after graduation. Nor does there seem to be a redily access for enlisted soldiers to become officers (the Trooper, Jorgan, and Garza all followed this path). Again, yes there are military academies but there seems to be no seperation of enlisted and future officers at those military academies.

Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII
And just saying Garza is simply called general and there is no chain of command, do you know how a military fantasy or not would function? It WOULDN'T. When you have a rank structure, there IS a chain of command, can't have one without the other.
Yes there is a chain of command. But unlike in the US military it is much less defined and fluid. Garza is in charge of Havoc Squad and yet later gets command of both the Safcrackers and an Armored Battalion. There is even a Republic force stuck on Voss under the command of A Senator and the Jedi Knight eventually becomes a General in charge of some Republic soldiers. The chain of command seems a lot more fluid then the US military.

Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII
Again, if you all REALLY want to see how Spec Forces really operate and are effective, watch Act of Valor. GREAT showing of how Spec Forces CONCEPT SyFy or not work.
I know in Act of Valor there was that great moment when the space ship came down and rescued the squad. Or when they had to disable the shield generator, sensors, and droids, and then take down the Sith Warrior... [/sacrcasm]

Again, trying to shoehorn real life into a fantasy setting does not work. There are things in fantasy settings (and things that are missing) that make real life tactics, organizations, ect. not work/fit.

Quote: Originally Posted by Seelvir
What you are describing is much less akin to the UN than it is akin to the US military during the revolutionary and 1812 wars. A central authority (the federal government) runs a professional military, but each state has it's own militia force, and states join the union and leave it all the time. The reason you don't see the Chancellor getting all Abe Lincoln / Civil War on the planets leaving the Republic is because 1) there's a war with an external superpower to worry about, and 2) the planets leaving the Republic are not joining a collective rebel state ala the Confederacy against which a military might be mobilized. And the Republic military IS on Ord Mantell, trying to quell the rebellion. So I'll grant that the socio-political environment in the time period of TOR is not perfectly analogous to the present day US. However, all of this is ancillary to the point that the Republic Army is run by a strong central authority, and you seem to be saying it isn't. Why does Garza get away with doing whatever tf she wants? Who knows? I'm inclined to say it's because of poor story-telling, but that's just me.
Please tell me of a state that left the US that wasnt part of the Civil War. FYI, there is a prescribed manner in which states can join per the Constitution, not one for leaving. In the US the Federal Government can take control of state militias and give them direct orders (Little Rock). In the Old Republic it does not appear to be so (Garza has to negotiate with CorSec for their assistance, the Trooper has to ask for assistance on Alderaan, and the Republic is on Ord Mantell because the leaders of Ord Mantell request it). The US can also send the National Guard to foreign lands by order of the Federal Government, but you dont see that in the Old Republic (only Republic soldiers go to other planets, not CorSec, ect).

Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt
You see this here is the reason why my Professors would fail me if I tried to cite a Wiki as a source in any of my Research papers. Jorgan mentions receiving Officer training on Coruscant durring the conversation when you first arrive.
They would also fail you for not giving the direct quote and not giving the exact source for others to be able to verify. And of course a game is a valid resource? Unfortunately Wiki (or Wookiepedia) is probably the only source outside of capturing video from the game.

[QUOTE=SuperGrunt]Also as an explanation of why the Trooper doesn't go through Officer Training before getting Command of Havoc Squad, during a time of war and or crisis it is not unusual for even in the US Military for the best qualified person available to be promoted to the required rank for a specific position (in the active duty US Army we called it a Battlefield Promotion) and then complete the required courses after the fact. I have read quite a few factual historical military stories regarding the Vietnam and Korean Wars where Sergeants (NCO's in general not really E-5's) where promoted to fill Officer roles and then would go to OCS after they rotated back to the States. Also in my own time in the Military quite a few of the personnel in my own unit where be promoted to e-5 and e-6 without the required school before it was standard procedure to do so.

I think we can all agree that the Trooper story arc (all 3 chapters) are a time of Crisis that leads into a time of war. [?QUOTE]

Your point is very true, often soldiers sometimes do get field promotions when required. By the Trooper isnt promoted in the field, and actually recieves all of his promotions (except the initial one) AFTER he has finished a major battle. And after that he is sent to....R and R! For some reason even though it might be a "time of Crisis" they still have time to send you for some R and R, but not for further training. It is unlikely, I would say would never happen, that the military would let someone some free time when they are in need of further training. Though yes, it is possible that they could have, and maybe should have, inserted that they send you off to more training and that gets interupted, but instead they send you off to the Cantina...

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.26.2012 , 12:03 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
Well I think TalonVII, Seelvir, and SuperGrunt are missing (or I am not stating it well enough) about what seems to be the military training and advancement ideology in Star Wars. While there are Military Academies in Star Wars (as evident by both Old Republic and Original Trilogy) there does not seem to be SEPERATE academies or training for enlisted soldiers and officers. As TalonVII states Han Solo went to a Imperial Academy and was given the rank of Lieutenant on leaving. But TalonVII does not state is that Han Solo's friend Soontir Fel was in the same class and left the academy as... a TIE Fighter pilot (not an officer) /snip
What you fail to realize, Tie Fighter pilots ARE OFFICERS. Granted they recieve a warrent to be a flight officer, but they ARE OFFICERS. Your quote right here is incorrect.

And think about this. Enlisted HAVE to go through some kind of basic training. Not like they just grab a guy off the street, hand him some armor and a rifle and expect him instantly how to field strip the rifle, what certain terms mean and what have you.

Yes this is fantasy but ALL fantasy have to have some roots in reality. You can't just say "Hey here's something kinda realistic but it doesn't have to be just because it's fantasy" If you went with that, Star Trek wouldn't work. The Battalions of Storm Troopers wouldn't work. Babylon 5 wouldn't work. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

It doesn't EXACTLY have to be like the RL. But you have to base SOMETHING in reality and the way the military works, basic principals have to be maintained, otherwise you have an undisciplined rabble. Trying to say the enlisted don't go through some kind of basic? Yeah uh uh...no that doesn't work fantasy or not.

Yes some officers come from enlisted and get battlefield promotions, hell happened frequently in Wars from WWI all the way to Vietnam.

But MOST officers have to come through some kind of academy or Officer Candidate School. ALL enlisted go through some kind of basic training, there is no way around that fantasy or no.

Again fantasy or not, can't get around basic principals that are UNIVERSAL.
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SuperGrunt's Avatar


SuperGrunt
10.27.2012 , 12:50 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Lurker View Post
They would also fail you for not giving the direct quote and not giving the exact source for others to be able to verify. And of course a game is a valid resource? Unfortunately Wiki (or Wookiepedia) is probably the only source outside of capturing video from the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by SuperGrunt
[Also as an explanation of why the Trooper doesn't go through Officer Training before getting Command of Havoc Squad, during a time of war and or crisis it is not unusual for even in the US Military for the best qualified person available to be promoted to the required rank for a specific position (in the active duty US Army we called it a Battlefield Promotion) and then complete the required courses after the fact. I have read quite a few factual historical military stories regarding the Vietnam and Korean Wars where Sergeants (NCO's in general not really E-5's) where promoted to fill Officer roles and then would go to OCS after they rotated back to the States. Also in my own time in the Military quite a few of the personnel in my own unit where be promoted to e-5 and e-6 without the required school before it was standard procedure to do so.

I think we can all agree that the Trooper story arc (all 3 chapters) are a time of Crisis that leads into a time of war.]
Your point is very true, often soldiers sometimes do get field promotions when required. By the Trooper isnt promoted in the field, and actually recieves all of his promotions (except the initial one) AFTER he has finished a major battle. And after that he is sent to....R and R! For some reason even though it might be a "time of Crisis" they still have time to send you for some R and R, but not for further training. It is unlikely, I would say would never happen, that the military would let someone some free time when they are in need of further training. Though yes, it is possible that they could have, and maybe should have, inserted that they send you off to more training and that gets interupted, but instead they send you off to the Cantina...
Seriously? I did give you the exact convo that you would need to watch, I just didn't redundantly mention Coruscant, and you don't need to provide direct quotes in a research paper to get an A, it's actually better if you read the source material and paraphrase it to put it into your own words. You still have to include sources at the end in a bibliography page so that people don't assume that you are pulling stuff out of your fourth point of contact. If you insist on hearing the words from Jorgans mouth and are too lazy to make a new trooper to do so. Watch it on youtube. It's about 5 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiSfS-gL5Ys

Actually the Trooper is directed not to take R&R, but to report to General Garza on Coruscant, if you where in the Military then you know that when a soldier(general use to refer to any service member) is given orders to transfer to a new command they are given a little bit more time than is really required to get there so that they can get there safely. The trooper isn't given an actual report time, but seriously this is a game if Bioware gave you a time frame to complete that quest I would have been one of the people on here complaining about that.

And in closing yes when you are discussing a game, the game is a legitimate source. Asking that question is akin to asking a movie critic why he is including clips from the movie when he is reviewing it.
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