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The Trooper's Rank

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Path-x's Avatar


Path-x
10.22.2012 , 09:57 AM | #11
Well in games or even films writers usually have no idea about ranks and military structure and for some reason don't do research on it (as someone already mentioned). Even more viable reason is that the huge majority of players / audience have very little or no knowledge of military ranks and structures either. So they just throw in a few ranks that most people have heard before (General, Major, Captain). I am surprised they even used Lieutenant.

Also what bothers me about Star Wars are Imperial (or Republic) rank insignia. They just throw in some random insignia that makes no sense in relation to ranks, does not follow any logical system and is not consistent between the episodes. Again, majority will never notice or pay attention to it but some of us gets annoyed by it.
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Kaisernick's Avatar


Kaisernick
10.22.2012 , 02:54 PM | #12
the point of gaza ordering havoc squad, well she seems like a woman who likes to control things so it may be that she has a hard time of delegating.

as for rank its to different in star wars, i mean look at the jedi they are given the rank of general which if im wrong is equal to admiral in the royal navy yet jedi can order admirals in the republic fleet.

Seelvir's Avatar


Seelvir
10.22.2012 , 04:37 PM | #13
@ Captain_Lurker: I'm going to have to reject pretty much everything you said, but I will try to do so nicely

On the issue of not injecting real life - there already is real life injected. They don't use made up ranks, they use ranks that correlate to the real world. Additionally, the order of those ranks is not made up, but rather fits a real world perspective, where officers go from Lt to Capt to Maj, etc. Otherwise, Captains would be Generals and Generals would be Sergeants. Real life is already there. What we are trying to determine is how much real life should we be concerned about, or just how analogous the Republic Army is to the real world one. It already is somewhat analogous, so saying that we should not inject real life into the fantasy setting is, sorry, dumb. It's already there.

Second, how do you know that the Republic military does not have an officer school? Are you basing that on the fact that the Trooper gets promoted from an enlisted rank to an officer rank without attending an officer school? I admit that one really required me to suspend disbelief, but here's how I did: battlefield promotions have historically enabled enlisted men rise up to officer ranks. Normally a battlefield promotion requires a degree of urgency (ie. can't wait for an officer to be trained, or can't wait for an officer from somewhere else to be reassigned here), and that was distinctly missing in the Trooper's case. Maybe you're right, that there is no officer school. But I'd need to at least see some kind of wookiepedia link validating the lack of an officer school as being established somewhere in the chaos that is the EU. Otherwise, this is another assumption of yours that must be rejected.

Your next point seems to be that the Republic military does not have a central authority. Again, this must be rejected. Just because the entity is called a "republic" does not mean it's military is some kind of United Nations peacekeeping force. Central authority stems from the Galactic Senate and the Supreme Chancellor. I agree it's confusing when member worlds of the Republic retain individuals who look and act like soverign leaders, but it's best to think of them as analogous to American state Governors, not as soverign heads of nation-states.

Finally, I lied. There IS something about your post I do not reject. In stating that Havoc squads members' high-rank allows them to unilaterally commandeer local forces, I think you make an adequate point. In the real world, that sort of squad is a paramilitary outfit with a "do whatever you want and make the military boys do what you say" slip signed by the president. In the game, though, we see in multiple interactions with the SIS that they seem to rely on Republic military assets to do the dirty work, and I guess Garza's SpecForces division sort of fills the niche of a paramilitary squad without the ambiguities of the "para" part of the term.
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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.22.2012 , 05:54 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Seelvir View Post
Finally, I lied. There IS something about your post I do not reject. In stating that Havoc squads members' high-rank allows them to unilaterally commandeer local forces, I think you make an adequate point. In the real world, that sort of squad is a paramilitary outfit with a "do whatever you want and make the military boys do what you say" slip signed by the president. In the game, though, we see in multiple interactions with the SIS that they seem to rely on Republic military assets to do the dirty work, and I guess Garza's SpecForces division sort of fills the niche of a paramilitary squad without the ambiguities of the "para" part of the term.
Having been in the Signals Intel field, you stating that SIS which IMO is the same as having the US National Security Agency and Central Intelligence Agency all rolled into 1, you don't think they use military assets to do the dirty work?

As Qui-gon told Obi-wan "You have much to learn padawan". Intelligence agenices almost ALWAYS call in US Special forces to do the dirty work. If you think CIA agents are all like James Bond and they do their own dirty work most times, you are nuts. Usually CIA or NSA depending finds the intel, and then they call for door kickers, AKA Special Forces.

So actually SIS relying on Republic SF to do the wet work, that actually happens IRL. So that was actually good writing.

Again, the general doing all the intel briefs for Havoc Squad except for certain circumstances

Spoiler


Other than that, except for welcoming you to Courscant in chapter 1 and explaining the situation, you should of been handled by an ops officer. It's what they are there for.

IMO when they made a rank structure for the republic Military, they should of red up on chains of command, and command staffs and stuff, really done their homework and realize that a general in command of SpecFor, almost never sees his teams face to face. He gets the missions from on high, tells his command staff and asks who's available, assigns the team the mission and leaves operational planing to his command team.

It's how it REALLY works. And the second they made a command structure like they did, they made it realistic. If you're going to have chains of command, ABIDE BY THEM.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
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Otembe's Avatar


Otembe
10.22.2012 , 06:24 PM | #15
My No-Prize answer: The traditional hierarchical structure between Squad Leader and Commanding General is dispensed with due to the classified nature of each squad's operations, minimizing the number of people who "need to know." The promotions you receive are pay raises.

Alternate answer: a lot of spots were left open in the chain of command by the many defectors who followed Tavus' lead. Your promotions reflect you growing into the role that Tavus occupied before his departure.

Maybe it's a little of both.

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
10.22.2012 , 06:34 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
even then you wouldn't see that. watch the movie "Act of Valor" That S.E.A.L. team couldn't of been more covert if they tried doing ops in MEXICO of all places. They didn't get their Op order from the commander of S.E.A.Ls. No they got their mission from the Senior Chief who was the interrogator.

And when they got re-directed into mexico, they got their mission from i think the CO or XO on the ship they were stationed on, and another time they got their briefing from a Navy Intel LT.

Never once did i see a Admiral/General give them their op orders.

I mean in chapter 1, i could see Garza welcoming them in and sitting in on the briefing and then offer in her 2 cents, but doing the op order herself, sorry, that was ALL WRONG.
The CO of a flagship or aircraft carrier is typically an admiral of one rank or another...so it is not far fetched just extremely uncommon outside of SFOD-D or Se.A.L.s etc. I used to work for the DoD and senior officer briefings from that side are far less uncommon as you might think. Generals and Admirals give briefings constantly...it's really what they do...whether it be strategizing about tactics or order of targets or other things. They can be as involved or hands off as they want. So suspension of disbelief is entirely unnecessary. Look at Patton for example. Also...you do not know if Garza's rank is equivalent to a Brigadier or Major general or a Lieutenant General or what. A 1 star officer is more likely to do something like that rather than a 3-4 star.

Osetto's Avatar


Osetto
10.22.2012 , 06:37 PM | #17
The utilization of real-world titles and structures is just to ease people into the fiction, offering them things they are familiar with but leaving them open enough for creative license. They'd rather people sit through some inconsistencies than spend their time wondering whether a 'Commandant' outranks the 'Lt. General'. Also, it makes it easier for the storyteller trying to design the system in the first place if they don't have to create something from complete scratch.

Now, the actual Republic Military operates as one could reasonably expect them to, in a world of blaster, super-weapons, and telekinetic warrior monks of course. There's still a chain of command. There are still different people who gather information, analyze that information, and carry out plans based on that information. You still have Majors, Captains, Lieutenants, and Sergeants leading Battalions, Companies, Platoons, and Squads. Only when Special Forces Division is invoked are you asked to just 'go with it'.

Also "SpecForces" is just a name. It is populated by armed "Forces" that are "Special". Don't get caught up in the nomenclature. Before the Treaty of Coruscant, 'Special Forces' referred to 'teams of talented commandos who were included in normal army regiments like any specialists' (From the SW:TOR:Encyclopedia). Garza saw what Havoc Squad did at the Battle of Alderaan and formed an entirely new division composed of those 'Special Forces'. Before Garza took a vested interest, maybe they followed the proper protocols with intermediaries and strict command structures like you think they should, but after 'Special Forces Division's official founding, their unique way of operating was built into their structure. It doesn't matter if 'real world Spec Forces' operate a certain way, this is a wholly different organization that just happens to share a similar name.

SpecForce squads report directly to SpecForce Command on Coruscant, and are overseen by General Garza. For all we know Havoc Squad is the only squad Garza takes a interest in to directly give orders and directions. We don't know Garza's other responsibilities outside of Havoc Squad or SpecForce Division. She was promoted to General at the same time she was put in command of SpecForces, so she likely has different responsibilities from a General in the regular Republic Army hierarchy. And remember, after the Treaty of Coruscant, the Republic and the Empire were at peace, yet SpecForces still carried out covert missions. And as much as General Garza dislikes groups like the senate undermining her control, you can understand why she would want to deal with the organization she heads as closely as possible.

Basically, Garza made Special Forces Division what it is. She controls it. She wants to control it. She designed it so that she could control it. The ranks bestowed upon her and those under her command are to keep an internal hierarchy, and to give them authority over members of the Republic Army at large should they be forced to cooperate. A Major in SpecForces may not be leading a thousand soldiers into battle, but they have been deemed worthy of issuing commands to lower ranked forces on the battlefield.

If you still have a problem with how they operate, or how they are structured, I don't know of any answer that can satisfy you other than, "You're right, this fictional thing is different from this real world thing. It's probably by design."
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TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.22.2012 , 06:58 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
The CO of a flagship or aircraft carrier is typically an admiral of one rank or another...so it is not far fetched just extremely uncommon outside of SFOD-D or Se.A.L.s etc. I used to work for the DoD and senior officer briefings from that side are far less uncommon as you might think. Generals and Admirals give briefings constantly...it's really what they do...whether it be strategizing about tactics or order of targets or other things. They can be as involved or hands off as they want. So suspension of disbelief is entirely unnecessary. Look at Patton for example. Also...you do not know if Garza's rank is equivalent to a Brigadier or Major general or a Lieutenant General or what. A 1 star officer is more likely to do something like that rather than a 3-4 star.
yes generals give briefings to command staffs, not teams. They strategize the mission who needs to do what flesh out the op order. Then it gets passed down to the actual team doing the mission.

Sorry as being on a TS team I was NEVER briefed by the commanding general of my MEU, hell i almost never saw the MEU commander who was a full bird Colonel. Yeah sometimes he sat in briefings that we conducted more so he could learn about what we do, but if he got a mission that required our specific element, he went to the S2 officer, who then came to my detachment CO, who then passed it down to the TL, who then turned around and passed it down to the team.

Now in certain situations yes there is no time and you get it directly from the flag officer but that is RARE.

Most times a team is getting briefd by an O2 or an O3, a Lieutenant or a Captain. Not a 1 star.

If a 1 star or higher is in a briefing, it's usually with his command team, not the actual pointy end of the stick.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
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TheLoneSage's Avatar


TheLoneSage
10.22.2012 , 07:53 PM | #19
I hope you realize, this is a Game filled with Space Wizards, Light-Swords, and Plasma Rifles.

And you're arguing over ranks.

Don't compare Sci-Fi/Fantasy with RL. You're just going to get nowhere. When talking about a Game's Fantasy Lore. Lore always takes priority over real-life.

Quote: Originally Posted by Seelvir View Post

On the issue of not injecting real life - there already is real life injected. They don't use made up ranks, they use ranks that correlate to the real world. Additionally, the order of those ranks is not made up, but rather fits a real world perspective, where officers go from Lt to Capt to Maj, etc. Otherwise, Captains would be Generals and Generals would be Sergeants. Real life is already there. What we are trying to determine is how much real life should we be concerned about, or just how analogous the Republic Army is to the real world one. It already is somewhat analogous, so saying that we should not inject real life into the fantasy setting is, sorry, dumb. It's already there..
By that logic we should be questioning the Imperial's Rank Structure as well.
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Seelvir's Avatar


Seelvir
10.22.2012 , 09:14 PM | #20
TalonVII: A little tangential, but in the real world, when the government is going to send in special forces to do a job that violates an ally's soverignty, or a job that risks creating a diplomatic or war-starting incident with an enemy, a job that is entirely illegal and that the government would deny if caught, aren't those typically carried out by paramilitary teams that are easily disavowed as opposed to uniformed military units? I've never sniffed this variety of stuff in the really real world, so I admit this is a point of ignorance.

Osetto: Thank you. Very much. I was hoping that someone would have the lore knowledge to provide an answer that makes sense, since I assumed Bioware was not this sloppy with their story conceptualization, even if they might have been somewhat sloppy in the delivery of the Trooper's story in-game. Your post basically wins this thread in my mind. A lore-based, story-based explanation I figured was out there. If there wasn't one, then we'd be left with a situation I very much dislike in fantasy settings, which is an ambiguity borne of poor story-planning that fans can interpret in as many different ways as there are imaginations to try. So again, thanks!

Quote: Originally Posted by TheLoneSage View Post
By that logic we should be questioning the Imperial's Rank Structure as well.
I suspect you are correct either way, but I don't really care, because I'm all pub all the way
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