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Updated Tanking Spreadsheet (TFB HM damage numbers!)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Updated Tanking Spreadsheet (TFB HM damage numbers!)

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.20.2012 , 12:54 PM | #1
Update: I have updated the final boss of TFB HM for the strategy of tanking the boss on a lower platform. A lot of the concerns voiced below are less acute under this strategy. TFB HM is *still* a F/T-heavy operation, but not as bad as I had thought (the exact ratios are 63.32% / 29.29% / 7.38%). I have retained the full text below so that the ensuing discussion doesn't seem ridiculous.

I finally sat down and updated my tanking spreadsheet with the pre-mitigation damage numbers from TFB HM! Here you go:

There is a lot of interesting tank comparisons in there, so it's worth looking at if you're curious as to how tanks are cross-balanced. It is worth noting that the Vanguard and Guardian numbers are a bit outdated, since the Shadow in question is now in partial-Dread Guard gear. Still, nearly correct.

In any case, I think the interesting thing here is to examine TFB HM itself and what it looks like in terms of DtPS. In a word: it's annoying. Here's the short summary:
  • Writhing Horror is very definitely the gear-check for the instance, with a pre-mitigation DPS of 3277
  • Operator IX is the closest thing to a pure mechanical fight in the game, with a pre-mitigation DPS of 1206 (post-mitigation: a paltry 239)
  • Average pre-mitigation DPS: 2021 (compared to EC HM, which is 1859; and KP NM, which is 3991)
  • Percentage of damage affected by defensive stats: 56.15% (compared to EC HM, which is 81.66%)

The increase from EC HM in pre-mitigation DPS is unsurprising. It's that last point that has me particularly demoralized: only 56% of TFB HM damage is subject to defense+shield. That's pretty brutal for a tank that is *heavily* dependent on shield/defense for overall mitigation. This puts TFB HM nearly into the same category as EV NM in terms of tank balance, which is not a good place to be.

To put into perspective exactly how bad this is, let's take a look at the comparative TFB HM survivability numbers for each of the three tanks (remember, the shadow in this case is better geared than either the vanguard or the guardian):
  • Shadow: 67.6407%
  • Guardian: 69.7825%
  • Vanguard: 64.3672%

Poor vanguards... Basically, the problem here is that a significant chunk of damage in TFB HM is not only bypassing defensive stats, but also bypassing armor (e.g. Scream on TFB, Ciphas's bleed, Kel'sara's Discharge ability, etc). To put this sort of imbalance in perspective: the difference between 64% and 70% survivability for a vanguard is LITERALLY the difference between level 50 quest blues and augmented Campaign. That's the kind of disparity we're looking at here.

In any case, I didn't want to turn this post into "yet another balance rant". The numbers are there, and you can check them against your own combat logs if you like (should be accurate +/- 3%). Hopefully this will help a few tanks and raid groups out there make informed gearing decisions for their progression in TFB. At the very least, it seems clear that shadows/assassins need to start making liberal use of our combat stealth to re-gear mid-fight (e.g. swapping in DPS gear between phase 1 and 2 of TFB), since tanking gear doesn't really help through several long stretches of these fights.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

dominius's Avatar


dominius
10.20.2012 , 04:38 PM | #2
I'm curious why you would switch out of tank gear for phase 2 of The TFB considering tanking on the bottom platforms makes him use Monsterous Swipe which is a Melee Attack that does Kinetic Damage. As in, it gets the full benefit from all of your tanking stats.

There are only 3 other things a tank should be taking damage from during Phase 2:
Phasic Spittle: 1 or 2 hits of this when they jump to a higher platform to drop Phasic Spit Pool.
Scream: 5 or 6 hits all fight immediately followed by not having to tank so the healers have a huge amount of time to heal you up, making the damage negligible if you take the Scream at 75% health or above.
Hypergate Instability: Ticks from being on a platform with an Irregularity. Minimal damage and completely avoidable if your tanks don't help kill those.

Just from looking at our tanks logs from our 16-TFB HM kill this week I can see ~60% of their damage taken during Phases 2 and 3 was from Monsterous Swipe and ~40% from everything else. I can also see they're avoiding/absorbing ~78% of those Monsterous Swipes. It seems to me losing tanking stats at this point in the fight would massively increase the amount of damage you take from not avoiding/absorbing those hits.
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pisauron's Avatar


pisauron
10.20.2012 , 04:42 PM | #3
Full HP build FTW!!
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Hatstandard's Avatar


Hatstandard
10.20.2012 , 07:11 PM | #4
how is it literally the difference between blues and campaign augmented gear?

is ur ops group 5/5 yet?

RanisTheSlayer's Avatar


RanisTheSlayer
10.20.2012 , 08:28 PM | #5
Suggesting that you should take off your tanking gear in the hardest content in the game while tanks already have enough trouble holding threat is the most hilarious form of ninja troling I've seen in a long time. Bravo, sir!
Ranis
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.20.2012 , 08:42 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by RanisTheSlayer View Post
Suggesting that you should take off your tanking gear in the hardest content in the game while tanks already have enough trouble holding threat is the most hilarious form of ninja troling I've seen in a long time. Bravo, sir!
Clearly you don't know how tanking works...

I was unaware of the Monstrous Swipe mechanic. If it is in fact a melee attack, then it might be worth tanking him at a lower level rather than on the higher one. It also depends on exactly how much pre-mitigation damage that ability does.

To answer a previous question, we are 4/5 on HM TFB. (update: as of now, we're 5/5) Got within 1% a few times. It doesn't really matter though, since whether or not we have previously downed the boss has no effect on his DPS, which is what this post was about.

As for the "blues to campaign gear" difference, I was serious. If you put a vanguard in level 50 blues with optimized stats, they will have around 64% survivability. If you put them in mitigation-stacked, min-maxed Campaign gear with full augments, they will have around 69% survivability. That's basically the spread that we're seeing here between vanguards and guardians on TFB HM.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

AshlaBoga's Avatar


AshlaBoga
10.20.2012 , 08:50 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by RanisTheSlayer View Post
Suggesting that you should take off your tanking gear in the hardest content in the game while tanks already have enough trouble holding threat is the most hilarious form of ninja troling I've seen in a long time. Bravo, sir!
Actually it's easier to hold threat in dps gear because your dps is higher and thus produces more threat.

The real issue here is that most tanks (as in, anyone who is not really really good) will struggle to stay alive in HM TfB if they're dps geared. Could they do it during certain phases? Certainly, a tank that switched to dps could help clear the anomaly's faster, but I know that I couldn't manage the switch and tank this fight.

The OPs suggestions are spot on, except swapping in dps gear would make sense if your tanks were some of the best in the game but would be a really bad idea for most guilds. I've actually seen some of the OPs fights, he's a VERY good player. So while this might be a viable strategy for him... this is a guy who freaking 2 manned HM LI's droid boss.
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Marb's Avatar


Marb
10.20.2012 , 09:17 PM | #8
We have some trouble tanking him on the lower platforms to his left and right because dps need to regularly traverse those in order to get to tentacles and anomalies, so we end up tanking on the higher platforms.

I can say though as a tank I would much prefer to tank on those lower platforms, as there is a risk that an anomaly will spawn on the higher pillar the tank moves to in order to take a scream (leaving the spit on the previous platform). We had this happen once, but just put it down to bad RNG.
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Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
10.21.2012 , 01:48 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
We have some trouble tanking him on the lower platforms to his left and right because dps need to regularly traverse those in order to get to tentacles and anomalies, so we end up tanking on the higher platforms.

I can say though as a tank I would much prefer to tank on those lower platforms, as there is a risk that an anomaly will spawn on the higher pillar the tank moves to in order to take a scream (leaving the spit on the previous platform). We had this happen once, but just put it down to bad RNG.
The general strat that i have seen usually has him tanked on the platforms where the tentacles normally would be for the next tentacle phase. Meaning that you start tanking where the 2nd tentacle will be, then you tank where the 1st one was when the 2nd is up. Then after spit you jump up to the far corners, to guarantee that no one will be jumping to that platform for what ever reason why being screamed at.

dominius's Avatar


dominius
10.21.2012 , 02:22 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I was unaware of the Monstrous Swipe mechanic. If it is in fact a melee attack, then it might be worth tanking him at a lower level rather than on the higher one. It also depends on exactly how much pre-mitigation damage that ability does.
It is, in fact, a melee attack. Check your combat logs or look at our kills/attempts: http://www.torparse.com/g/691 & http://www.torparse.com/g/659

There are multiple ways you can tank and position during this fight to still be able to keep the tanks on the lower platforms. We do it one way, other ways have been suggested in this thread. The essential point is to never be tanking him for more than a hit or two on the top platforms because you'll go from avoiding 70% of his hits to avoiding 0% and the hits will be much harder up top.
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