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Carnage Is Dead


Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
10.19.2012 , 12:36 PM | #1
I tried out carnage a few days ago after 1.4, and I am now quite convinced that it is by far the worst overall spec for 1.4. The only time I would consider it now is for Huttball, and that is only for speed boost to ball carriers and to be a dedicated ball returner / enemy ball carrier killer. Why? Well it requires more time on target than other specs. Anni, you can apply dots and even if you get stunned or knocked back, at least your dots are ticking. Rage, you do such incredible burst - you get that 6-7k smash off and then if youre stunned or cced for a little bit, it's not as big of a deal. With carnage, if someone interrupts your gore chain with a knockback, stun, or cc, you have to wait for 9 seconds to do another one. Carnage doesn't get the damage reduction or self heals of either of the other specs, so it has the lowest survivability also. With the sorc bubble stunfest that 1.4 is, I just don't find carnage to be worth my time.

Also, when I went carnage the other day I was actually losing 1v1s against rage maras/juggs - people that I typically have no problem with. What I found is that, while carnage needs as much time on target as possible to inflict damage, Rage does not. It's very easy for a Rage mara to use point blank fear cc, force choke or force cloak after any of your gores, completely screwing your dps rotation as carnage. Plus, the biggest drawback of rage is the cooldown on smash / obliterate. By using cc's, stuns, and force cloak, they negate a big portion of that drawback. The typical fight would go something like:

One of us gets off charge, I massacre, gore start to ravage - interrupted by force cloak. Meanwhile, he has generated 4 stacks of shockwave and is ready to oblit / smash or just smash if he got off first charge. He immediately comes out of cloak, smashes, force chokes. By this point I am at half health. He now uses his point blank aoe fear, runs away, charges at the last moment and smashes again. Now I am significantly low. I can use force choke on him, but it won't make up for those 2 big smashes that he got off while I was cced and got my gore chain interrupted. At this point, he will probably have berserk, meaning a full, free rage bar. Now I am either low enough that he can vicious throw (which HITS for 3k+, crits for 5k+ with a 15% higher crit chance as rage) or I will be after 1-2 more moves. At this point, I am forced to use undying rage and potion and I can likely get off a full gore chain on him, making him also undying rage + potion, however mine will wear off before his does, and he has a 4 stack smash ready at this point. I can try cloaking and surprising him, and I might get lucky, but the reality is that I have been at a disadvantage since the opening 5-6 moves of the fight, during which the rage warrior got a solid lead on me by using his CCs and smash burst damage. At this point, smash + vicious throw seal the deal, I am dead and the Rage marauder is victorious.

Now that's just one encounter example, but in PvP right now, a huge factor for every class is bubble stun. If there is even one bubble stun sorc / sage in your battleground, you will get punished every time you touch someone. Anni and Rage both can deal with this better than carnage. Anni, hell you can put up bleeds and run away from the target while your bleeds pop the bubble. This doesn't always work, and especially not in the cases of focus fire, but in many it does. With rage, you can use saber throw + force scream to pop it , since neither is a vital part of your rotation (unlike carnage where force scream is your single biggest hitting ability).

The only real use I can see for a carnage marauder in 1.4 is to slow/root and focus fire down ball carriers in Huttball, and to carry the ball with run speed + pred. The funny thing is, carnage didn't change, but the buffs to rage and bubble stuns impact carnage in a very negative way. I am sad to see this unique spec go, but I guess having 3 viable pvp tress couldn't last forever. Thoughts? Comments? Flames? Go!
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> Shadowlands
Aluviann Jedi Sentinel <Triumph> Shadowlands (Retired until sents/maras git gud again)

Dacer's Avatar


Dacer
10.19.2012 , 04:23 PM | #2
I disagree that its dead. I can still manage to get great number when im doing carnage spec.

You are right that carnage requires more time on target but thats why ravage/ and deadly throw root ppl.

Though carnage is my favorite spec, so there is some bias i guess.

But Anni has the greater survivability, always has. Its great for solo quing and 1v1.

However has a carnage spec you have to be a little more aware of the other classes than the other specs. As you mentions the others , anni has healing / rage has more damage mitigation, so you have to wait to use our hardest go to comb of a gore ravage until you get knocked back... is the favorite thing for a ranged class and inquisitors to do. OMG A MARAUDER OVERLOAD!
I like to start with a mass - gore force scream because even in a knock back situation i can still hit them with it...
then jump back.

But you are right... carnage is effected a lot more by increase in stuns.

-Yui-'s Avatar


-Yui-
10.19.2012 , 06:00 PM | #3
The bubble stun needs to be looked at by Bioware, but calling Carnage dead is exaggerating things. It's tidbit more frustrating in wzs now, but keep in mind sage and sorcs are gimping themselves just to get that stun.

While going Rage may be tempting, the fact of the matter is Combat still offers one of the best bursts in game (and I refuse to play rage out of principle). You can simply adapt to the bubble stun. Purposely break it, then use your normal rotation.

In one on one situations, you should have no problems killing off another Rage specced Mara or Jug. Sweep hits for a measly 3.5k - 4k with aoe dmg reduc, and that's his biggest hitter.
meh

Quangus's Avatar


Quangus
10.19.2012 , 06:13 PM | #4
Basically agree with what the OP said.

Though i would say that carnage/combat is far from dead since many on my server still use it even after 1.4 and i spec into it myself if my guild does rateds and want me to do it.

But for solo wzs without a healer... its just a pain and so frustrating inbetween all the stunfest. Sure, with hard work and a bit of luck u still can be top dps on ur own with it but i feel like i can achieve damage much easier with watchman and focus. And here lies my first problem/mistake:

I didnt change my playstyle when i changed to combat at first. Since combat was the last spec i tried on my sentinel ( and focus being my main) i had the least experiences there and so tried to fight like i was doing as watchman or focus every day before. - Charging into people fearlessly, kill them quick, kill their friends and kill some more while staying alive as long as possible no matter what they throw at u. Needless to say the self-heals and damage reduction (+reduced cd on gbtf) of these specs could keep up an illusion of u being an one-man-army sometimes.

But as combat ur not anything like that, ur a glass canon. And getting stunned (especially if they target u specifically) all time ur just glass... At first i thought i just suck at combat but other sentinels have told me of similar experiences and they only run ataru if they know they have a pocket healer. So the solution for me when i was solo-queing with combat was to change my playstyle radically.

I didnt try to engage 1vs2+ fights anymore, i run away from them. Every time a strong Watchman/Annihalation Mara jumps on me, i hit camo and run away. Running away is is not hard in this spec. So instead, i try to engage enemies who are alrdy engaged in battle and unload my dps on them while they use their cc on others. I always look around where my healers are and if they can reach me or if i can reach the healing pots if it gets critical, hell i even save my transcendence for this.
Doing all that has increased my survivability and thus allows me to do more damage but its still disappointing when u realize that watchman and especially focus can give u better survivability and more damage at the same time. ( again, saying this is at least in my case)

Im most effective when i see myself not as the frontline warrior but rather the flanking opportunist... The team supporter with speed boost and roots ready on demand, not the point man.

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
10.20.2012 , 10:23 AM | #5
I've gone 1 on 1 with some of the best guardians and marauders on our server since respeccing back to rage over a week ago. I haven't lost vs any of them, by a long shot. Against pug premades with pocket heals I am consistently getting 950+ dps, and 1k or even 1.1k+ is not uncommon.

We've been running 2x smash maras + 2x pyrotechs or 1 PT + sniper in our rateds. The one team that really challenges us on our server for rateds has a similar comp, which means the majority of their dps is "melee" (PTs are basically melee as well). All those smashes tend to devastate the other team.

The problem is not so much carnage, but just the changes to resolve and bubble stun, buffs to some other ranged classes, and you end up having less time on target than ever in warzones. It's rare that I am attacking a target for more than 5 seconds consistently, and that is what Carnage requires to do good burst - 6 seconds consistently on target. If you don't get it, you have to wait to gore. Add to that the squishiness of the spec, the fact that it does not benefit from using things like force choke, and it becomes the inferior spec.

I don't think there is anything wrong with carnage, but it's place in warzones is very narrow and limited due to how resolve works and changes to other classes. Another way I could put it is this: The only time a carnage marauder is effective is if he/she is ignored by the opposing teams stuns/ccs and dps. Rage is much easier to set up burst damage and keep it going. It's very rare that I get a 4 stack of shockwave and don't get to hit at least 2 people with it. That's 10k Damage minimum in one GCD, versus 6 seconds for a carnage marauder to push maybe 12-16k.

Maybe it's not 100% dead, but it is now the red headed step child spec that gets beaten by its older brothers.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> Shadowlands
Aluviann Jedi Sentinel <Triumph> Shadowlands (Retired until sents/maras git gud again)

Ryvirath's Avatar


Ryvirath
10.20.2012 , 10:33 AM | #6
I'm fairly sure having a tree that is egregiously overpowered doesn't make any of the other trees less effective. It just makes them less desirable. A better title would be carnage is not broken: why you shouldn't run it.

Also who are you 1v1ing? You should never beat an anni marauder as rage; that's one of the few 'drawbacks'.

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
10.20.2012 , 11:14 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
I'm fairly sure having a tree that is egregiously overpowered doesn't make any of the other trees less effective. It just makes them less desirable. A better title would be carnage is not broken: why you shouldn't run it.

Also who are you 1v1ing? You should never beat an anni marauder as rage; that's one of the few 'drawbacks'.
I don't think we have any marauders/sents that spec anni that are anywhere near my skill level any more. They are all rage, or some are stubbornly clinging to carnage. But yeah you're spot on, anni should always beat other specs in a 1v1 considering all things equal. I think a big part of not seeing anni marauders is that they have all remodded their gear for pure power or are in the process of doing this, and that gear set up is much less effective for anni than the standard set with a few accuracy enhances swapped for power or crit.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> Shadowlands
Aluviann Jedi Sentinel <Triumph> Shadowlands (Retired until sents/maras git gud again)

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
10.20.2012 , 11:40 AM | #8
I still want to know how the hell u got a 7k hit on me, made me respec back to heals after that game lol

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
10.20.2012 , 11:46 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by CJNJ View Post
I still want to know how the hell u got a 7k hit on me, made me respec back to heals after that game lol
If it was your sage, sages in general are pretty easy to land those hits on. It's rare that I see less than 6k when smashing a sage, unless they have bubble up or a guard.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> Shadowlands
Aluviann Jedi Sentinel <Triumph> Shadowlands (Retired until sents/maras git gud again)

CJNJ's Avatar


CJNJ
10.20.2012 , 12:20 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
If it was your sage, sages in general are pretty easy to land those hits on. It's rare that I see less than 6k when smashing a sage, unless they have bubble up or a guard.
I'm used to 6k, when Caedo and Skillzex(think that his name) and the many other smashes only get 6-6.4k in my full gear, and an ungodly amount of 5.6ks for people trying to be lolsmash and failing. was just shocked lol

There certainly is less good anni/carnage maras on our server though. Still see some every so often, but there ain't much of a kick in their hits.