Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 06:38 AM | #981
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
It doesn't, but it does. I know for a fact that when I run premades, I group with my friends, who are all in augmented War Hero gear. I know most others do this as well. One of us wants to gear up an alt? That's fine, we carry them, we don't all hop on Recruit geared alts to queue. Not to mention, its more likely you meet people and start consistently grouping with them after you've already PvP'd for a while and gotten yourself some gear, you don't just get stomped next to a couple other Recruit geared guys and go, "Hey, lets group up and get stomped together!".
I'd say this is an unfounded generalization. Just as you usually premade with WH players, I usually premade with the first 3 people to respond in G chat. This yeilds a mix of gears, and generally either a healer or a tank but not always both. (I am a healer as needed).

Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I'd rather split queues til we can get a flexible matchmaking system? Look at ranked and what a failure of a matchmaking system that is.
That was not the question, the question was which would you prefer. I gather from your answer you'd prefer the matchmaking.

Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Just split the queues.
My question then, is what about backfilling? What about filling for incomplete (2-3) man groups? And if there aren't enough people in queue, is it really acceptable to have up to 15 people in either queue (16 needed for a match) sitting around with no pop indefinitely? (That's up to 30 people without a match)

If you're trying to build a "more fair system" it has to be "fair" to both sides, or all you've done is shifted the problem.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
11.20.2012 , 06:41 AM | #982
It doesn't have to be fair on both sides. They could remove the group queue entirely from the game and I guarantee you'd see more people queueing for warzones than you do currently. People that run premades will still queue without them.

Its a question of boosting overall warzone participation, not of making a "side" happy, considering most people do both already.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
11.20.2012 , 06:45 AM | #983
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
You missed the point of what I said, so lemme try again. This was in response to the person saying PuG's -couldn't- fight at the same level as a Premade in terms of coordination.

Good strategies rarely change, and those who know them can use them even without practicing with a particular other person.

Focus'ing a healer is common sense, as is getting them away from a tank. If the fight is 4 of you to 2 of them, it should be pretty easy to guess where the other 6 are. Likewise, if you go to break from the fightt head to were those 6 are and someone else does so too, it shouldn't take words for one of you to decide to let the other go, and keep this fight 3 vs 2. Perhaps one of the more common problems is mezzing. You shouldn't need to communicate not to break someone's mezz. At the same time, you should know not to mezz if it is likely to be broken (aka, in the heat of a fight with aoe).

So yes, a Premade is more likely to get 4 good players (though there -are- bad premades) from fight to fight, but it is nonsense to say a PuG can not act with the same level of coordination and strategy as a good Premade, if the PuG's are actually good players.
I didn't miss any point at all. If you handpick your team, they are going to be better than if its random. That is a fact. That's the reason you handpicked your team in the first place! I don't know how you can't get past this.

I guess your argument is, you had the ability to handpick your team too? Yeah, I did, except my friends that I normally queue with aren't online.

So, either we both wait til our friends are online and we can run our faceroll teams, faceroll pugs and maybe never even face each other, and kill queues... or, we can both just solo queue, see who we get, and probably play some pretty even matches.

As for your argument that your randomly group with 3 people in general chat? That's awesome! Guess what? Nobody else does this. Yeah, its a generalization, its also far closer to reality than your fairy tale land of everyone grouping with whoever responds first, which is more like PUGing than anything anyways.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 06:59 AM | #984
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
I didn't miss any point at all. If you handpick your team, they are going to be better than if its random. That is a fact. That's the reason you handpicked your team in the first place! I don't know how you can't get past this.
Nope, you did.

I'm talking about -situational- events.

The statement was: "A PuG can not achieve the same coordination of a Premade."

My Reply is: "If it's 4 good PuG's with an understanding of group strategy, they do not need to be grouped before the match to work as well as a Premade."

I'm talking about a micro point as a counter argument to that persons statement, you are talking about the over all (macro) picture.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
11.20.2012 , 07:09 AM | #985
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Nope, you did.

I'm talking about -situational- events.

The statement was: "A PuG can not achieve the same coordination of a Premade."

My Reply is: "If it's 4 good PuG's with an understanding of group strategy, they do not need to be grouped before the match to work as well as a Premade."

I'm talking about a micro point as a counter argument to that persons statement, you are talking about the over all (macro) picture.
But even then, you have to ask yourself, what's the more common occurence? Why do most people premade in the first place? I'd say 10-20% of it is, these are my buddies, lets do some warzones together. But 80% of it? Let's get 3 other people that know what they're doing, have some decent gear, and actually synergize with my class/spec so we can win.

Because people are competitive. They want to win. And they're going to use every advantage they can get. So just because a PUG can hit the lottery and get a good composition of good players in good gear that knows what they're doing, doesn't mean the premade vs PUG equation is balanced, it means you can get lucky.

I'm not saying take away premades or remove them from the solo queue to hand out wins to PUG's. That's silly. What I am saying is even out the playing field, and if matchmaking is too hard, then just split the queues. Because the same people who PUG also premade, we all play the same game.

Right now, I don't even bother queueing until I can put a good premade together. I play 4+ hours a day, and spend maybe an hour of it in warzones. If everyone were solo queued, I might queue the entire time I'm online some days. I'm willing to bet most of the people who premade share my sentiments regarding it.

Maybe you're different. You're that one guy who likes getting crushed in PUG's and feels everyone should lift themselves up to be better. Personally, I don't believe that's true, I know some people are just always going to be only "this" good, and that's OK. And as long as the queue is random, and I can get them on my team just like you can, they're going to still want to play. But if you and me team up because we don't want the average player on our team, and the average player is always stuck with other average players and being destroyed, the average player is going to stop playing.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 07:11 AM | #986
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
It doesn't have to be fair on both sides. They could remove the group queue entirely from the game and I guarantee you'd see more people queueing for warzones than you do currently. People that run premades will still queue without them.

Its a question of boosting overall warzone participation, not of making a "side" happy, considering most people do both already.
Really? Have you never heard "I will not PvP without my friends?" How many people do you think BW would piss off/lose if there was no group queue option for regular warzones. Some player can -not- stand playing with random people, who 9 times out of 10 suck. (Hint, there are some people who despise having to pvp pre 50 for this very reason.)

If there is a problem, the solution has to benefit/punish both sides equally or all you've done is created a different imbalanced system.

As an example from history, the practice of discrimination in the workplace (towards minorities) was considered unfair. To rectify it, Affirmitive Action policies were placed, which had some positive effects. Unfortunately, they then created situations where less qualified minorities were given jobs over more qualified majorities creating a new unfairness. Both problems (discrimination and reverse-discrimination) exist today, because the major problems were not addressed immediately (education for all, education against racism, cultural change/tolerance, and fair evaluation for all).

Edit: As for the second topic we're discussing, I'm dropping it. You're still not understand I'm talking about a micro, theoritcal situation. "PuG's can't be as coordinated Premades" is like saying "Commando's can't be Mauraders." maybe 9/10 a commando will lose to a maurader, but a well played Commando can beat a Maurader depending on circumstances. That's all.

(On a side note, bed time. talk to ya tomorrow.)

CharterMonkKent's Avatar


CharterMonkKent
11.20.2012 , 08:18 AM | #987
This is a gear gap complaint and little else. If everyone would be honest.., no one is going complain about a group of 4 recruit/battlemaster geared players.

A social game is for social game play. If you don't want to play socially then it's probably not the game for you. I'm not being condescending, just stating the fact that those who don't want to play with others will always be at a disadvantage in MMOs. Complaining about that and asking for major game changes is counter productive.

If people want another tier of pvp based on another factor that's fine. But attacking the social aspect of an MMO is going the wrong direction.
Wnk & Zlk & Knk & Xlk & Znk & Ynk & Tnk & Qnk & Chart
<Nothing Personal>
+ =

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.20.2012 , 08:36 AM | #988
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthRaika View Post
Sorry to be so blunt Kir but you need to grow up. Many games have vastly improved with a simple system like I am proposing.

Do you really think there is any chance in hell BW will do split q's without cross server? Take rift for example (which was cross server at the time) when they first did premade matching it was pretty much a split q and pops took forever and a bunch of people quit (a lot of my pvp guild). Then they switched to a matchmaking system and eventually a mixed faction team system and pvp was a lot more fun again. Of course right after they killed pvp spec variability and dumbed the game down so it wasn't all great but the matchmaking system was much better than split q.

They won't do what you are proposing and even if they did it would be horrible. Be realistic!
You do know matchmaking is just another label for the same system right? Oh you probably knew that, that's why you are pushing for it.

Improved matchmaking still keeps the system that pushes new players away. Hey what happens if new players don't want to pvp?

Then you get longer queue times.
Then you don't get a healthy pvp community.
Then you don't get any potential groups forming.

So stop trying to label "matchmaking" as a option since it's just another term for the same problem.

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
11.20.2012 , 08:43 AM | #989
moment they implement newbie single que brackets (like L 50 under 1100 expertiese), the moment I reitem my assassin to gank headless newbie pugs and make their life hard, oh the fun it shall bring.

I mean really. no one sees how it will be abused to make current 'not so bad not so good' system into total 'poop' ?
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.20.2012 , 08:56 AM | #990
Quote: Originally Posted by CharterMonkKent View Post
This is a gear gap complaint and little else. If everyone would be honest.., no one is going complain about a group of 4 recruit/battlemaster geared players.

A social game is for social game play. If you don't want to play socially then it's probably not the game for you. I'm not being condescending, just stating the fact that those who don't want to play with others will always be at a disadvantage in MMOs. Complaining about that and asking for major game changes is counter productive.

If people want another tier of pvp based on another factor that's fine. But attacking the social aspect of an MMO is going the wrong direction.
How is a group of random's joining a pvp match and meeting NEW people in pvp less social than a premade that runs with the SAME people over and over?

I guess as far a community building, that pug wins.

Which again proves that I'm right.

Want the facts? Then all you gotta do is log in the game.

"Hey join a ranked match"
"I can't"
"Why?"
"Noone is queueing QQ"
"So you admit ranked pvp is dieing due to lack of new blood coming into the pvp community?"
"Yes"
"How would you fix this?"
"Matchmaking"
"That sounds like a label for the same situation, oh wait it is! Do you have the code and/or are you a dev that knows the state of matchmaking first hand?"
"Well....no...derp"
"Thought so."

The end.