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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.19.2012 , 07:47 AM | #951
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthRaika View Post
The way I used ignorant it was not an insult. I am ignorant of many things as is everyone. He didn't read my other posts.

A decent matchmaking system is nothing like this. Especially if they allow diff faction teams.

Solo only Q would actually be easeir to game than matching.

I HATE PUGSTOMPING. I want premades to fight premades and pugs to fight pugs.

THEY WILL NOT DO SOLO ONLY Q WITHOUT CROSS SERVER AND CROSS SERVER IS NOT HAPPENING ANYTIME SOON.

As soon as you realize this we can work together and pester the devs to fix pvp.

Also, remember with mixed faction teams then if 2 imp premades q and 0 pub ones q then the imp premades will fight eachother while the pugs will be on both sides.
That's why I said I support cross server queue's and solo bracket many times before, because you need both to come full circle to helping out pretty much everyone.

Solo bracket = Breeds new players
Cross server queue's= Higher competition base.

It's a win-win if both of these things are put in the game at the same time.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.19.2012 , 07:55 AM | #952
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Are you a programmer? Have you ever programmed a matching algorithm? Do you know how many Programmers Bioware has? Do you know how to split queue's?

I'm going to guess no to pretty much all of that. Simply put, you (and I) do not know how long it would take Bioware to do either option. As stated before, I do not believe bioware has the luxury to make another stupid hasty fix. We need a "real" solution to the "correct" problem.

Fyi. No one likes being lab rats. Should see how many people complained about ToR being incomplete, and essentially Paying to Beta Test in the first 6 months of this game.
Actually I studied programming at university and I know a fair bit about game coding. While I have never programmed any MMO games (I give you that) the company I work for as an IT tech has several quite sophisticated proprietary programmes that I have helped develop and modify. I can make reasonable guesses based on the algorithms I've been working with so far. And it is as I have said, I know this for a fact: the more paramateres a program has to analyze, the more variables we need to input, the more expensive, difficult, complex the program becomes. Even a simple data analyzer program that only measures two values (bought/sold) becomes significantly more complex if you add in just one more parameter (faulty products.) But enough about me, I don't want to bore you with my personal life.

Expertise in itself is not enough to be a deciding factor when trying to make balanced matches. Valor in itself is not enough either. Average mod levels and armor rating is not enough. Team composition is not enough in itself and never mind that it can't distinguish between tank/dps and heal/dps variants of the same AC. And what about hybrids?
You'd need a value (preferably hidden) that takes all the abovementioned into account. And of course, implement safeguards for the inevitable attempts to circumvent the system. Sure it can be done given enough time and money, no one is doubting that, other games have developed similar systems after all. But what until that joyful day? Leave PvP as it is, in this miserable state? I don't think so.

Let's examine queue separation as an interim solution (that is UNTIL WE GET MATCH MAKING) that measures two values. The person who presses button 1, gets into group 1. The person who presses button 2, gets into group 2. What happens when a premade is trying to synch solo queue? 2 people will be placed on each team if it's a same faction match. 2 will be placed on one team and 2 will wait for the next match if it's an opposite faction match. And you know what? You can even allow solo players to press button 2! That way all the masochist, self-tormenting fakirs who want to face certain death for faster queues can fill out leftover spots in premade groups.

So yeah, once again, match making all the way. But until that happens let's not sit back comfortably and sip Corellian Ale but do something that curbs the rate at which we lose people.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.19.2012 , 08:04 AM | #953
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I suspect that unless they completely eliminate the reg wz queue and make everyone queue rated, that x-server matchmaking won't matter. I"m sure that even with x-server, the population is too thin for rated, but rated is the only system with any sort of matchmaking that can be based on reliable stats (wins/loses). we've already established that you can fool any gear check. but then you'd be creating solo queueing in rated and asking BW to do a group finder sort of thing to construct grps, and ppl cheat that all the time (e.g., a tank AC queues as tank for EV cuz 2 tanks are required, but he has no intention of tanking). either way, it's pretty bleak.

I'd give solo queues a shot. it seems more doable than the other options. it's pretty clear that BW is technically limited by the engine they're using.

please pardon me if my rambling doesn't make any sense. I'm mesmerized by the jailhouse bumble bee uniforms that the steelers are wearing. is this for real?
I can't believe they are wearing those uniforms but on another note.

I think cross server queue's will help, that's only my opionon though, I have no real facts to back that up since I can't predict the future. So far only three options been really making sense:

Solo bracket
Cross server queue's
Improved Matchmaking

If you want to save pvp from dieing, then put in the first suggestion but not without cross server queue's. I don't know the code bioware uses and I'm not part of the dev team, so if matchmaking is broken then it would help things along. Bioware can't stop at matchmaking because then you are just getting more of the same.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.19.2012 , 08:19 AM | #954
yep. I don't doubt that x-server would help. it's just...very late in the game, and its impact at this stage will be relatively minimal. there will be a spike for about a week while ppl test the waters, and then it will die because the pools are too shallow, and only the few top guilds will have it in themselves to queue. and then the top guilds' egos will be bruised when they lose to other servers' top guilds, so they'll throttle back on their queues and only queue when they have their absolute best possible comp online. so on and so forth. I don't need the force to see where this is going...
meh
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
11.19.2012 , 10:34 AM | #955
I don't think pre-mades are killing non-ranked. Frankly, when I was starting out there was no way to win without them (that's just how dominant the random Imp pugs were back on my starting server). And even if you remove premades from non-ranked, you still don't solve the problem. People don't have gear and even if you are with a premade, you can't overcome that gap.

While Expertise damage done and damage resisted is supposed to = 0 for palyers at equal Expertise, I think the new curve has degenerated us back towards pre-1.1 (that is, when you'd have fully Battlemaster-geared players playing in the same bracket with 10-49 without gear at all). That's how big the gap is between War Hero and Recruit. Even worse, for the players that have taken this golden opportunity to come back with F2P, there is an entirely new curve they need to work on. The old Battlemaster gear on the old curve is worse than Recruit and some players are still adjusting to this (some of them are using straight PvE gear, which was viable way back when but ceased to be in 1.2).

Personally, I play PvP for competition, not for facerolling. If I wanted to deathmath and put up insane numbers off of defenseless puppies, I'd go play a shooter like Team Fortress 2 or Battlefield 3. I guess if people are serious about having fun killing people who are so undergeared they are helpless to stop you as you 2- or 3-shot them, then I think we have two wildly different views on what "fun" is and what the definition of "competition" means. Frankly, I'm fine either way. I'm min/maxed in full Combat Medic gear just the way I want. I've put my grind in so there's no skin off my back. But I also think the grind needs a look, and shy of that, matchmaking need an overhaul to at least make an attempt to keep teams roughly gear balanced.
Aux "Spaniard" Wargarde (Rank 2400+ Combat Medic) | Reighner the Relentless (Conqueror Bodyguard)
The Generalissimo Legacy
<Uncensored>

alexzk's Avatar


alexzk
11.19.2012 , 02:39 PM | #956
Ok, I play PVP alone since march. Never group with anybody. Except did 3 times RWZ with randoms :/

I have 4 chars on rep side and have 1 on imp side already. I play PuGs on both sides as I said but that's ridiculous - both sides say other side is much better and face premades 80% of time! It's even worse for imps side because they face imp-imp 70% of all games and at the prime time most of those games are vs premades. It's like system do 1 random team and group against premades. I don't believe it couldnt make 2nd random team on both sides. It happens most of times.

Just got fight when opposit team made each over 450k dmg (their healers did 1mil+ in summary) and ours was 300k maximum! Furthemore - never seen those nicks fighting by Jedi month ago or nowadays in my group as Sith.

So it clear explains, ones are old returned now or newly geared but premades.
I dont care though, I just want them be removed from normal WZs totally. Best solution can be randomizer which makes grouping by equal gearing, meaning team 1 has 10000 of armor ratings, team 2 has 9500 - 10500 ratings in total.

And finally, If people will have 3 free wz per week do you really think they will buy some more being smashed all 3 free times?

P.S. And yes, now I avoid "after-daily-reset" fights. I do it starting in morning till reset. Evening time is just continious resurection. :/
There is no ignorance - there is knowledge.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.19.2012 , 02:46 PM | #957
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Actually I studied programming at university and I know a fair bit about game coding. While I have never programmed any MMO games (I give you that) the company I work for as an IT tech has several quite sophisticated proprietary programmes that I have helped develop and modify. I can make reasonable guesses based on the algorithms I've been working with so far. And it is as I have said, I know this for a fact: the more paramateres a program has to analyze, the more variables we need to input, the more expensive, difficult, complex the program becomes. Even a simple data analyzer program that only measures two values (bought/sold) becomes significantly more complex if you add in just one more parameter (faulty products.) But enough about me, I don't want to bore you with my personal life.

Expertise in itself is not enough to be a deciding factor when trying to make balanced matches. Valor in itself is not enough either. Average mod levels and armor rating is not enough. Team composition is not enough in itself and never mind that it can't distinguish between tank/dps and heal/dps variants of the same AC. And what about hybrids?
You'd need a value (preferably hidden) that takes all the abovementioned into account. And of course, implement safeguards for the inevitable attempts to circumvent the system. Sure it can be done given enough time and money, no one is doubting that, other games have developed similar systems after all. But what until that joyful day? Leave PvP as it is, in this miserable state? I don't think so.

Let's examine queue separation as an interim solution (that is UNTIL WE GET MATCH MAKING) that measures two values. The person who presses button 1, gets into group 1. The person who presses button 2, gets into group 2. What happens when a premade is trying to synch solo queue? 2 people will be placed on each team if it's a same faction match. 2 will be placed on one team and 2 will wait for the next match if it's an opposite faction match. And you know what? You can even allow solo players to press button 2! That way all the masochist, self-tormenting fakirs who want to face certain death for faster queues can fill out leftover spots in premade groups.

So yeah, once again, match making all the way. But until that happens let's not sit back comfortably and sip Corellian Ale but do something that curbs the rate at which we lose people.
Well, I certianly admit I made a false assumption about your background. Sorry about that.

I still don't think Bioware can afford to make a short term fix like seperate queue's considering the potential blowback for little gains. (Most important, how would the group bracket backfill, or fill for incomplete warzones?)

Another interesting thing I found, look at this quote talking about the plans for ranked in 1.2:

Quote: Originally Posted by Game Update 1.2 News Article
The Ranked Warzone matchmaking system will match full groups of eight against one another, solo players against one another, players with similar ratings, etc. However, in order to ensure that players won’t have to wait too long for a match to occur, the system will become more ‘flexible’ over time. Solo and group queued players might be pulled together after a while if needed to launch a match. If a match cannot be made for extended periods of time, then Normal and Rank queued players (except those who queued as a group of five or more) might be pulled together to launch a ‘mixed’ match. Players will always be notified when a mixed match is made on the Warzone enter prompt. The rewards received in mixed matches will be based on how the player queued (type of commendations, rating adjustment if any, etc.).
Quoted Article

While I found no mention of a ranked matchmaking system actually being implemented in the 1.3 notes or it's article, it appears there may even be ground work alread designed for what has been suggested. Essentially a split solo and group queue, yet with the ability (and flexibility) to cross fill after a short amount of time.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.19.2012 , 03:11 PM | #958
Does anyone consider what happens when a group of 3 queues up? Are they going to have to wait for another 3 to queue on their side? Do they have to hope that someone passes on the solo only queue and queues by his/herself into the group queue? Is their team screwed in an 8v7 eventually? Do they now have to have 2 or 4 people only? Backfilling dc's? Are we going the same as ranked where you are just screwed since there aren't any singles queuing?

I'm not sure people have truly thought through the logistics of the situation.
I have opinions and stuff

Veniras's Avatar


Veniras
11.19.2012 , 03:14 PM | #959
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
While I found no mention of a ranked matchmaking system actually being implemented in the 1.3 notes or it's article, it appears there may even be ground work alread designed for what has been suggested. Essentially a split solo and group queue, yet with the ability (and flexibility) to cross fill after a short amount of time.
I could accept (I still consider it a hack, instead of "proper" matchmaking) this with the notification, so I know what matches not to enter. If I choose to PUG I will not want to meet a premade.

In the end this is a futile discussion. People have their own POV and will act accordingly. Most likely less PUGS will PVP if nothing is being done to alter the situation.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.19.2012 , 09:40 PM | #960
1 minute is too short but if you make it 3-5 minutes AND!!! you allow mixed faction teams then most of the time this will solve the problem.

PLEASE REMEMBER PEOPLE swtor will not have cross server q's for awhile and I guarantee you they won't do a straight split q anytime soon without cross server. I'm not trying to be rude it is just the likelyhood of this is very low. Also, you will not get a huge following for this idea to make them want to in the first place.

The only logical course of action is to get behind a decent matchmaking system with mixed faction teams and push this hard. The mediocre premaders won't speak out too much against this idea since they don't really have any ground to stand on (besides admitting they want to pugstomp only). Also you will get the people that like to premade when they know they will fight other premades (like me) and the currently bored decent to good premaders.