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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
11.17.2012 , 03:19 PM | #881
Quote: Originally Posted by LeonHawkeye View Post
Well said, and this is putting it lightly. There are an abundant amount of problems left unmentioned with the current system, most long term fixes but queue separation as you mention is simple, quick, and easy and will go a long way into welcoming players into PvP instead of repelling them.



Try telling that to the massive amounts of people leaving the game because it simply isn't fun, balanced and sadly not even competitive. You and your special cupcakes will then be left to guess what... Play against each other. (Premade Vs Premade)

I'm not exactly sure why you have such a vendetta to keep Premades Vs Pugs, it holds absolutely no fruit for either side unless you have a hard on for rofl stomping pugs, which would make too much sense. If you truly support competition, you would gladly embrace anything that streamlines and better supports Premade Vs Premade play, but this apparently doesn't seem to be the case with those of you claiming for one excuse or another that Premades Vs Pugs is fine (It's not). Judging by your posts it is hard to argue that your "long queue" excuse is anything but a pretense to rofl stomp pugs, and it is a weak excuse at that. Sorry but no, if done right, premades would be pushed into Ranked, which is were they belong and should be all along. Ranked should be modified, I'll admit and give you that it's fairly dysfunctional as is but the simple fact is Premades don't belong in the same Warzones as Pugs.

We are left in a terrible position since we neither have an adequate matchmaking system nor cross realm queues, neither side wins, at the very least a higher emphasis needs to be placed on groups facing other groups. Ideally and a long term solution as we have mentioned and agreed would be proper matchmaking, cross realm to support a more robust pool of players and eventually the phasing out of Premade Vs Pug altogether, it would no longer be necessary nor wise to keep around, as is it punishes players to play on their own, this may be an MMO but that doesn't mean it should tell you and force you to play the game the way it wants you to play, that is a recipe for poor game design and one that is destined to fail. For whatever reason, a group isn't always available, punishing your playerbase for wanting to play your game outside of these inconvenient times will not encourage them to continue playing your game.

Take a look at some of the most population dense and successful games out there, I may not like them nor support them but they are successful and have millions of millions of subs for a reason, I am not saying this is the only reason but it is among the top; very few if any of them force Premade Vs Pug play on the player, they leave it as an option to the player when he/she feels ready for the competition and challenge. Force feeding your players with a frustrating experience and saying, "There, that is your playground, eat it and deal with it." Is not a very good business model nor one with much longevity.

Lastly I leave you with this question: Why would a game continue to support a clearly dysfunctional system which not only fails at it's task but effectively repels players, and is viciously unforgiving to new players just stepping into the arena and experiencing PvP for the first time. These players not only do not have the motive, nor the knowledge or social experience in the game to be consciously malicious, lazy or otherwise capable of the many other lies and slander you use to describe players that for whatever reason Solo queue. This system not only appeases a small portion of the player base (Premades) but manages to frustrate an alarmingly vast portion of the remaining playerbase (Pugs). Why, why in god's green earth would a game continue to support a system that repels it's own players from it's content?
If premades were such a small portion of the player base, presumably you wouldn't encounter them very often. Problem solved.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
11.17.2012 , 03:21 PM | #882
Quote: Originally Posted by LeonHawkeye View Post
I'm not exactly sure why you have such a vendetta to keep Premades Vs Pugs
We would like que times to stay low for both premades and pugs. That is our "vendetta" Such a terrible despicable goal I know.

I would love the better competition of premade v premade every match.... if you could give it to me within 2 minutes of queuing. I don't believe SWTOR can so I like most other "premaders" would rather be able to play than wait in a que that takes half an hour to pop. The seperate que idea would just turn the premade que into something almost as bad as the rwz que, AND it would make the solo que almost as bad if not as bad as lowbies.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.17.2012 , 03:26 PM | #883
You are smarter than that criminal. Geared premades obviously play more often than the average casual player. I could go further but that should explain to you already that premades can be a minority and still a problem. Now I don't think premades are the problem. I think the system is. At least some people will always do what they can to take advantage of a system. We need a better system. This will be better for many premaders and puggers.

MidichIorian's Avatar


MidichIorian
11.17.2012 , 03:39 PM | #884
Premades are ruining rated warzones.

Yeah I said it.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
11.17.2012 , 03:41 PM | #885
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
We would like que times to stay low for both premades and pugs. That is our "vendetta" Such a terrible despicable goal I know.

I would love the better competition of premade v premade every match.... if you could give it to me within 2 minutes of queuing. I don't believe SWTOR can so I like most other "premaders" would rather be able to play than wait in a que that takes half an hour to pop. The seperate que idea would just turn the premade que into something almost as bad as the rwz que, AND it would make the solo que almost as bad if not as bad as lowbies.
And to echo and expand on Asuna's point here...

Premades, or PVP guilds for that matter, don't have a "vendetta". Neither do they/we maliciously roflstomp pugs laughing manically in vent while we torture midgets with our free time between spawns.

You have a large group of players. 100% of them want to win. Mathematically only 50% of them ever will. The "good" players find another 3 people they know are good, group with them, to maximize their chance to win. The "bad" players respond by saying "I want a system in place that ensures I only have to play against 1 good player, instead of 4 per match."

One method involves players taking action to maximize their success. The other method invloves people taking no action themselves, and asking everyone else to adjust to minimize their personal chance at failure.

I don't want subs to go down, or queue times to go up, any more than anybody else, but my sympathy isn't going to make bad players good. And until bad players get good, they are going to lose games. And they are either going to be frustrated by playing the game, or quit playing.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.17.2012 , 03:41 PM | #886
Quote: Originally Posted by LeonHawkeye View Post
Lastly I leave you with this question: Why would a game continue to support a clearly dysfunctional system which not only fails at it's task but effectively repels players, and is viciously unforgiving to new players just stepping into the arena and experiencing PvP for the first time. These players not only do not have the motive, nor the knowledge or social experience in the game to be consciously malicious, lazy or otherwise capable of the many other lies and slander you use to describe players that for whatever reason Solo queue. This system not only appeases a small portion of the player base (Premades) but manages to frustrate an alarmingly vast portion of the remaining playerbase (Pugs). Why, why in god's green earth would a game continue to support a system that repels it's own players from it's content?
=P it wouldn't, that would be a terrible idea.

*Sigh* I wish people would actually read what I've said (all of it) before spouting off stupidity. I am all for a proper matchmaking system. If there are 4 premades in queue within 5-10 minutes or so of each other, the game should match them together. If there is some measurable statistic of skill (maybe valor rank, even though that can be raised just by grinding) then the game should try and pit Valor 100 vs. Valor 100. If There is a Valor 80, a Valor 70, and a Valor 50 int eh queue, it should put the Valor 80 and Valor 50 together, then the V70 with the V60. Etc... I totally think the system should wait a -little while- to match people on some criteria rather than throwing the first 16 eligible people into a match.

My issue has come down to the split queue, which literally solves very few of the overal issues with PvP. It will not solve gear-gap issues, it will not solve composition issues, general skill level issues, etc... It targets one thing that we (as players) really have no idea how it's effecting the general population. It also could possible cause several negative side effects for such few potential gains (Longer queue's, dead group queue, promoting solo-ism in an MMO, Lowering skill required for success... etc...). As I said to the other person, I do not feel Bioware can afford to make any more risky fixes (especially given their track record).

We as players do not have the information to make a determination whether a risky venture like a split queue would work well for ToR's target audience, population, and system, and the potential negatives are just as bad (if not worse) than the potential benefits.


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But lemme sum up -my- position so I will hopefully stop hearing assumptions and accusations on where I stand. if you look back through the posts here, you'll find I've had the same overal message/points.

1. I believe this game needs cross server queue'ing.
2. I believe this game needs proper matchmaking, basing on group size and/or general overall valor. I say Valor because while it's no indication of personal skill, it should be an indication of progression. I doubt you'd find a valor 80 without full WH.
3. I believe players should be more responsible for their own level of effort, and strive to achieve rather than blame others for their choices.

Simple, no?

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.17.2012 , 03:50 PM | #887
okay, so lets just pretend that pugs are given their own warzone bracket, for solo-queuing only.

now, what happens when the group queue is dead, and instead of forming a group and queuing together, 4 players simply queue up simultaneously, funnel down the queue for a bit until they have a really good chance of getting in together, and then all make it into the same pug bracket match?

this is already do-able with 2 4 man teams, to make a full 8 man premade in non-ranked. it just takes some patience for the first warzone (to funnel down the queue a bit) and some coordination.

so that is my question. what happens when "organized teams" start appearing in the solo-queue only bracket?

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.17.2012 , 03:53 PM | #888
Ya doom I agree with you. My earlier post wasn't trying to argue with you just to make a point.

Criminal. I guess you are a jug or mara with good gear who premades a lot. You may be good or may not be it doesn't matter if that is the case. The softcap to those classes is low even in a pug and in a premade it is pretty much nonexistent. Your healer should keep you up with your cds and you should have near 100% melee uptime even as a mediocre player.

If you have another of your spec with same gear and same premade then you can still show who is better but as far as most of your matches go even a bad player of your class and gear in a decent premade would be a major threat. Don't kid yourself. From your response it seems you are not like doom. Doom wants even matches. You want to keep thinking you are a good player and not face that it may or may not be true.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.17.2012 , 03:57 PM | #889
Cash, most of us want matching not solo only. I'm just trying to convince the few solo only holdouts that its a bad idea.

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
11.17.2012 , 04:08 PM | #890
Bioware, we awaiting your response. This is REAL problem for plenty solo players.

Or you will be continue ignoring community?
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