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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.12.2012 , 06:46 PM | #711
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I don't think that's what the core complaint is. I think the core problem is that the best players queue together. so they stack the odds in their favor from the start - doesn't matter if they're playing pugs or premades. a solo-only queue would fix that problem. any grping would be random and, therefore, nobody could purposefully push the odds in their favor. and tbh, I don't have a problem with solo queues from that perspective.

in fact, I say just do it, and the issue becomes a non-issue. either reg premades become the barren wasteland that rateds are...or they don't. that's in the hands of the players. BW did a horrible job with rated, but at the end of the day, the queues are empty because ppl choose not to play. the option is there.
(While my premades are usually whomever responds in Gchat fast enough...)

I think that's the fundmental problem with PuG thinking... which is that the point of the game -is- to stack odds in your favor. From the moment you start your character, you should be stacking the odds in your favor.

1.Grab every datacron you can
2. Join that guild that's going to help you level up and gear up
3. Save your comms for 50
4. Take a crafting skill that's either going to help, or be tradeable to get you help.
5. Send gear from your alt
6. party with people instead of taking 7 other random players.
7. Learn, learn learn... read up on other classes, play them, ask friends about them

That is the point of a progressive PvP system/game. It's just like playing a deck building game like Magic. If everyone could just get the -point is to stack the deck in you favor.-

If you really, really, really want a casual pvp game... try a shooter, or GW2 (which btw... most people think failed hard on pvp.) ToR is not a -casual- game. If it was... you'd start at level 50 with a full WH toon.

Zhaker's Avatar


Zhaker
11.12.2012 , 06:49 PM | #712
I get what you are saying Doom in regards to rewards, but the suggestion you made in regards to Matchmaking could work, but there are difficulties with it:

- Premades skill level in the group could vary, this is an edge case I know, but if they are too disparate how does this work would it make everyone in the premade an average of those skill levels? That would be problematic if the top skilled players combined with 1 weak player who loses every month to fight average to low average players.

- High Skill level players fighting each other could be rare, meaning that a skilled player would be waiting for ages to get PvP going, is this HIS fault for doing so well?

- Matchmaking abuse: the worse part is if someone like deliberately loses a match but DPS so damn hard and kill the team farming them for ages then its going to be a problem.

The rewards I dont mind, so long as its not giving any advantage for PvP. But then it begs the question do people want a carrot on a stick for participating in WZ?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.12.2012 , 06:56 PM | #713
@Zhaker:

Not exactly sure what you mean, but here is what I mean.

16 people queue up (ignore 2 factions atm.)

8 of them are premade (2 groups) and 4 of them are pugs.

In the current system, if the 2 premades queue up just right, they will be Double premade vs. PuG = PuG's cry and die.

In a matchmaking system, it would take the 16 people, and make 1 team a Premade+4pugs, and the other a Premade+4pugs. You would never again seen a double premade vs. PuG's, but you'd more commonly see 2 premades against each other with 4 pugs each.

As for rewards and etc... Well that's a conversation for another time. I already think rewards/gear for PvP is stupid, but it's a fact of the game and a fact of how MMO's work.

Zhaker's Avatar


Zhaker
11.12.2012 , 07:08 PM | #714
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
@Zhaker:

Not exactly sure what you mean, but here is what I mean.

16 people queue up (ignore 2 factions atm.)

8 of them are premade (2 groups) and 4 of them are pugs.

In the current system, if the 2 premades queue up just right, they will be Double premade vs. PuG = PuG's cry and die.

In a matchmaking system, it would take the 16 people, and make 1 team a Premade+4pugs, and the other a Premade+4pugs. You would never again seen a double premade vs. PuG's, but you'd more commonly see 2 premades against each other with 4 pugs each.

As for rewards and etc... Well that's a conversation for another time. I already think rewards/gear for PvP is stupid, but it's a fact of the game and a fact of how MMO's work.
It does happen but its a roll on the die for that to occur, I don't know how often that occurs on your server but on Harbinger it doesnt ALWAYS happen in PvP. But that is just someone abusing and needs to be reported honestly, because thats an abuse of mechanics really.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.12.2012 , 07:29 PM | #715
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
(While my premades are usually whomever responds in Gchat fast enough...)

I think that's the fundmental problem with PuG thinking... which is that the point of the game -is- to stack odds in your favor. From the moment you start your character, you should be stacking the odds in your favor. .
hey, you want to rule a desert, you go on thinking that way. the majority of ppl even the pvpers (on my server) are casual. don't get me wrong. i have no prob with ppl grp queueing. it's asinine to tell them not to. but I don't know what color the sky is in the world of someone who thinks the majority of the fodder they make their bank on every night are gong to stick around up against that. iunno. w/e. i'm in a guild. I can queue with good ppl when I want. almost not my problem.
Krackerjäck VG | Krackerjak PT | Krackcommando | Deinon Merc | other stuff on Jedi Covenant.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.12.2012 , 08:04 PM | #716
PEOPLE THAT ARE TIRED OF GETTING PUGSTOMPED PLEASE STOP SAYING SOLO Q!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What we need is a matchmaking system and mixed faction teams when necessary.

PREMADERS THIS WOULD NOT INCREASE Q TIMES A LOT!!!.

The point of a good matchmaking system is to only make a premade wait for a few mins max (assuming enough people for a wz of course lol). If you are still the only premade that q's up after a few mins then the regular system kicks in and you can go pugstomp. If not then you fight a premade. You may be with another premade or you may be with some pugs.

Mixed faction matching would try to keep the factions different but if say 2 imp premades q up and there are 8 mixed pugs then you get mixed up and the wz is a training scenario.

Zhaker...this kind of system is harder to game than the current one. I mean there are bad ways to play it but honestly there are worse and easier ones now.

Please people on both sides read this and respond. Puggers this will make your life much better most of the time and Premaders you will actually get some competition.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.12.2012 , 09:40 PM | #717
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
hey, you want to rule a desert, you go on thinking that way. the majority of ppl even the pvpers (on my server) are casual. don't get me wrong. i have no prob with ppl grp queueing. it's asinine to tell them not to. but I don't know what color the sky is in the world of someone who thinks the majority of the fodder they make their bank on every night are gong to stick around up against that. iunno. w/e. i'm in a guild. I can queue with good ppl when I want. almost not my problem.
If you have a word processor (like Microsoft Word) but the -majority- of people who buy it want a Photo Editor, do you change the Word proccessor to a Photo editor, or do you tell them they bought the wrong program?

First, I don't think the majority of players are casual, unless you define anyone with 2 hours or less to play a day casual. In which case <.< during the summer and holidays (and most weeks) I'm a casual. Now as I've spoke with DarthRaika about Matchmaking, I'm not opposed to the rules being amended -again.- (Bags to Comm system, Free recruit gear, Free Mk-2 recruit... cheaper offhands and gear...) I fully realize a game must evolve...

But switching an MMO from the traditional progression/gear base to a casual happy puffy-play-palace is like changine a Word Processor into a Photo Editor...

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.13.2012 , 10:30 AM | #718
Just knowing how far you are going off topic, says that you can't really defend the current pvp state.

That being said, premades are ruining pvp. The end. There is nothing really to discuss and the other side only offers insults as a response or making sure the game dies unless they get their way.

Hairyzac's Avatar


Hairyzac
11.13.2012 , 10:37 AM | #719
Quote: Originally Posted by Zhaker View Post
It does happen but its a roll on the die for that to occur, I don't know how often that occurs on your server but on Harbinger it doesnt ALWAYS happen in PvP. But that is just someone abusing and needs to be reported honestly, because thats an abuse of mechanics really.
Queue syncing is an abuse of mechanics? News to me. Do you have a quote from BW on this?

LenrocNewDawn's Avatar


LenrocNewDawn
11.13.2012 , 11:55 AM | #720
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
If you really, really, really want a casual pvp game... try a shooter, or GW2 (which btw... most people think failed hard on pvp.) ToR is not a -casual- game. If it was... you'd start at level 50 with a full WH toon.
It's OK for you as a player to think that but it's a bankrupt stance to be adopted by the developers of an MMO. If they want to keep selling this game "to the idiot casual PuGer" (not my words but I've used it so the owner sees how wrong that sounds) they need to find ways to deliver fun & entertainment to such players. If they do nothing, they fail, if they do it by detracting from your slice of fun, they fail, if they find a way to keep you (you as in hardcore) and the casuals happy then they win.
It's not an easy thing to balance, agreed, but pitting full WH min-maxed geared toons that play in a group, against people newer to the game that play sub-par geared toons and they queue alone, it's wrong in any way, shape or form. If you can't see/understand that then never mind me or this post. I readily agree that it doesn't always happen but you can serve me cake all night long if at the end or the meal you serve me **** my dinner will be spoiled. Prolly on your shoes too .

Title of this thread is wrong, it should be " Premades are ruining the non-ranked warzones for me". And there are a number of players that feel that way. Showing them the door or disrespecting their opinions it's not the way to deal with it.

In 2 days F2P will hit the real servers and while it will take some time until the ones that opt for such a gaming style will ding 50 on their toons this problem will be pending for a resolve. Because you can be sure that the current state of the level 50 PvP will not bring any fresh subscriptions.

LOL game is played by millions and it has nothing on SWTOR except a well thought ranking system which ensures balanced and fun to play matches.

On a final note, I really think that resolving the team balancing problem will make a lot of other QQ reasons disappear (CC/resolve QQ, Class balance QQ, ability balance QQ etc). Not all of course but the majority for sure.
“Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.”