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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

xyrmagus's Avatar


xyrmagus
01.10.2014 , 05:36 PM | #6911
As someone who came back about a month ago from quitting a couple months after launch (quit for a new hardcore raiding game... then puzzle boss happened...even after beating it we STILL weren't sure what the strat was... bugs galore and super easy), a few of my friends and I came back primarily for starfighter, but also for warzones (we still raid in WoW for PvE stuff). Originally we were empire on Darth Bandon, and that got merged into Shadowlands, and we decided to give republic a try. To me it's hilarious how star fighter is the polar opposite of warzones in regards to the dominant faction, and shows me that Bioware has a ways to go when it comes to figuring out how to stop a mass faction exodus in a certain part of the game.

My experience in warzones upon hitting 55 has been... well... sad. I could go through a whole narrative about everything that's wrong, but at a fundamental level, when a completely random pug is matched against a premade even in the 4v4 arenas, something is wrong. At prime time, pretty much all I see are premades from Death Smile, Death-Sentence, and HMD Magenta. On top of that, the bolester system clearly doesn't carry out it's intention; where you SHOULD have maybe a 5% advantage over someone based on gear, instead it is a complete and utter curb stomp over someone without pvp gear.

Add to this that the points you receive for a loss are about HALF of that for a win, and this effectly clearly would snowball.

There really is no way to fix the imbalance of geared players versus random baddy pugs (and for the record, I very well may be one of those baddies), but some suggestions to start getting on the right track...
  • WZ Comms and Valor - This ratio needs to change. Instead of say, 140 WZ comms for a win and 70 for a loss, it needs to be more like 140/120. The dailies, accordingly, should just be games played, they clearly favor certain people over others (whether or not you halve the count doesn't matter).
  • Bolster - This isn't really working. The whole concept of being more powerful than someone else in a pvp environment is fundamentally flawed, guild wars had the right approach here to having one stat set and just allowing people to earn skins. PvP doesn't work well with a gear treadmill as skill is replaced by gear.
  • Handicap - I understand why seperating the group queues is problematic and can result in longer queue times. First, you have the option to make better matched games if you have CROSS REALM functionality. I assume this is still not in, because I see the same three guilds on my server constantly. Second, implement a BATTLE handicap if you queue as a group. Say a 10% power reduction in damage/healing for each person past the first that you are queued with (not sure of the exact number, but some kind of penalty). Or a kind of buff on the other team that does the opposite, if you prefer. Or maybe make them earn fewer points, move slower with the hutball, take longer to cap, etc. There are a lot of options. You can queue as a group, but you won't get to **** stomp pugs, you'll have to work for it.
"...peace was atrophy. Only through conflict could potential be realized." -Darth Malgus

cycao's Avatar


cycao
01.10.2014 , 06:01 PM | #6912
Quote: Originally Posted by xyrmagus View Post
  • WZ Comms and Valor - This ratio needs to change. Instead of say, 140 WZ comms for a win and 70 for a loss, it needs to be more like 140/120. The dailies, accordingly, should just be games played, they clearly favor certain people over others (whether or not you halve the count doesn't matter).
  • Bolster - This isn't really working. The whole concept of being more powerful than someone else in a pvp environment is fundamentally flawed, guild wars had the right approach here to having one stat set and just allowing people to earn skins. PvP doesn't work well with a gear treadmill as skill is replaced by gear.
  • Handicap - I understand why seperating the group queues is problematic and can result in longer queue times. First, you have the option to make better matched games if you have CROSS REALM functionality. I assume this is still not in, because I see the same three guilds on my server constantly. Second, implement a BATTLE handicap if you queue as a group. Say a 10% power reduction in damage/healing for each person past the first that you are queued with (not sure of the exact number, but some kind of penalty). Or a kind of buff on the other team that does the opposite, if you prefer. Or maybe make them earn fewer points, move slower with the hutball, take longer to cap, etc. There are a lot of options. You can queue as a group, but you won't get to **** stomp pugs, you'll have to work for it.
Not sure if serious.

Receive almost double the comms for a loss and make winning no much better than losing? Why not just hand out participation medals which can be turned in for a piece of gear?

I don't think you understand how bolster works. There is a post on it now. Bolster is working as good as it has been in a while. You can be more than competitive without any PvP gear if you know how to gear yourself up and use augments/stims/datacrons/max affection.

Cross servers are never going to happen and as far as given a handicap id go with you if every single premade is comprised of the players of the same skill factor, classes/specs and composition. And if I'm reading that a 4 man group would receive a 30% debuff for all damage/healing/protection? C'mon man.



Look I'm all for finding logical solutions but these are all poorly thought out even if you took the time to write them up.

xyrmagus's Avatar


xyrmagus
01.10.2014 , 06:25 PM | #6913
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Not sure if serious.

Receive almost double the comms for a loss and make winning no much better than losing? Why not just hand out participation medals which can be turned in for a piece of gear?

I don't think you understand how bolster works. There is a post on it now. Bolster is working as good as it has been in a while. You can be more than competitive without any PvP gear if you know how to gear yourself up and use augments/stims/datacrons/max affection.

Cross servers are never going to happen and as far as given a handicap id go with you if every single premade is comprised of the players of the same skill factor, classes/specs and composition. And if I'm reading that a 4 man group would receive a 30% debuff for all damage/healing/protection? C'mon man.



Look I'm all for finding logical solutions but these are all poorly thought out even if you took the time to write them up.
These weren't written up with the intention making things easy for the people already at the top. They are there to curb the horrible imbalance bioware let happen. They are there to make the horribly lopsided factions more tolerable to those on the losing side. For the last week, I have done AT LEAST my 6 daily games a day, usually more like 10. I kept track, I won 3. The WHOLE week. Two were the 4v4 arenas I DIDN'T have to fight a premade (the other being a voidstar). Normally I am either top or second from top on medals (I play a vanguard tank, so it's difficult to get damage medals). A serious portion of these games we are stomped so badly you can't get ANY match objective medals, meaning the vast majority of players can't even get their 8 medals just to get the max WZ comms out of a loss.

If you don't let the republic get a close # of commendations, the terrible, undergeared players will continue to stay undergeared, and be demoralized into either not playing or just doing their daily (and staying terrible, instead of trying and learning). The incentive to win should be in the challenge at this point, or the shame of a premade losing to a pug. Do you really thing a fully aug'd player with 3 others in voice chat has to worry about losing to a random bolstered player with a 20-30% penalty? I don't.

When blizzard was faced with a similar problem, they merged servers or offered free character transfers. There are two problems with this in SWTOR. First, the faction imbalance across ALL servers much more heavily favors the Empire (this is because the empire is just cooler, focus groups should have shown them this and stories and class choices should have been altered accordingly). And second, there is no option to faction xfer, even though the characters are exact mirrors. You can make an arguement about how the class story is not 1:1, but the easy solution is to reset them at the beginning of whatever planet you were on previously (with obvious handling of balmorra vs taris and faction specific planets). They have done none of this, and kinda just let the republic side rot and force PvPers into the empire side (which at this point I'd rather quit given all the work I put into my vanguard).

As is, I haven't seen them do a single thing curb premades OR the faction imbalance in any form (even repub winning Star Fighter, and that's still in early access, now is the PERFECT time to take action)... and that sits OK with you?
"...peace was atrophy. Only through conflict could potential be realized." -Darth Malgus

anwg's Avatar


anwg
01.10.2014 , 06:38 PM | #6914
Quote: Originally Posted by xyrmagus View Post
[*]WZ Comms and Valor - This ratio needs to change. Instead of say, 140 WZ comms for a win and 70 for a loss, it needs to be more like 140/120. The dailies, accordingly, should just be games played, they clearly favor certain people over others (whether or not you halve the count doesn't matter).
So you basically want people to just stand around AFK, because a bunch of quick losses will be better than a long win. Think before you post.

xyrmagus's Avatar


xyrmagus
01.10.2014 , 09:52 PM | #6915
Quote: Originally Posted by anwg View Post
So you basically want people to just stand around AFK, because a bunch of quick losses will be better than a long win. Think before you post.
That already happens on republic side on a bunch of maps, like Voidstar. Why bother when they beat you so thoroughly you die the moment you leave the spawn? I've been in plenty of warzones where we are spawn camped.
"...peace was atrophy. Only through conflict could potential be realized." -Darth Malgus

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
01.10.2014 , 10:18 PM | #6916
Quote: Originally Posted by xyrmagus View Post
That already happens on republic side on a bunch of maps, like Voidstar. Why bother when they beat you so thoroughly you die the moment you leave the spawn? I've been in plenty of warzones where we are spawn camped.
On Pot5 pubs run a lot of premades. Transfer there and join up. Being minority faction, most of the time there are double premades farming imp pugs like cabbages.

magi_melcior's Avatar


magi_melcior
01.11.2014 , 04:00 AM | #6917
Right now the big problem is that there is no incentive for ranked teams to play in ranked. I mean think about it, you can only do Arenas, matches don't count to the daily/weekly, you have long queue times even in the group queue and when you do get a pop you're facing the same guys you've faced 1177 times before.

Most of the premade teams in regular WZs are not there just for a free PuG stomping. They are there because they want to play 8v8, want to get their daily/weekly done, don;t want to wait 30mins between WZs and don't want to keep facing the same 2 or 3 teams all the time (because it gets boring very quickly).

Simply banning all groups from the regular queue is NOT the answer as it will hurt those non-premade groups that simply want to play together socially. Also it will not stop that small number of premades that like to bully PuG (I never said they didn't exists) who will simply queue sync in the solo queues and still get there group into WZs.

The answer is to give the ranked teams a reason to play ranked again as right now the only thing they really get from it is a position on the leader-board. I think you could do this with the following changes to the PvP structure:
  • Return 8v8 to ranked queues
  • Maximum group size in ranked queue is 4, so for an 8v8 it will be 2x4man vs 2x4man
  • Introduce a Ranked Daily and Weekly (gives ranked comms)
  • New "Elite Valor" rating only available from playing ranked, with its own Titles. This could then be used like a reputation system allowing the purchase of unique (non performance enhancing) items from a new vendor (Unique Saber Crystals, weapons, adaptive armour, mounts pets ect). Give ranked players something to spend their comms on once they are fully geared.
  • Increase the amount for credits awarded for completing the Daily/Weekly missions at all PvP levels, doing PvP dailies should be a viable alternative to running Black Hole or Section X
  • Halve the number of ranked comms given by the regular Daily/weekly missions (but increase the number of reg comms).
  • Remove the cap on WZ comms once a player hits 55 but not before.
  • Remove the ability to buy rankled comms with regular comms. But add the ability to trade comms for Classic and Basic comms instead.
  • Remove Bolster from ranked PvP, only those with full PvP gear should be entering
  • Allow players to queue for both ground WZs and GSF at the same time
  • Introduce an in-game voice chat client for WZs and Ops

Giving players more rewards for doing ranked will lure teams back, especially if they get to play 8v8 again, as will giving them unique (and cool) titles and cosmetic items, people do like to show off after all
Reducing and limiting the number of ranked comms they can get from regular WZs will also push gear grinders back into ranked.
Removing Bolster from ranked will hopefully mean less undergeared bads trying ranked as their PvE gear will be destroyed due to the lack of Expertise.
Introducing an in-game VOIP system will give PuG the choice to remove one of the premades big advantages, if PuGs choose not to use it then it is there own fault.

However even if most ranked teams leave the regular queues there will still be some bullies left, but they will not be able to hide in amongst the decent ranked teams that are just in the regular queues because they is no reason to play in ranked. And since the bullies can no longer hide it will be far easier to call them out and do something about them.
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magi_melcior's Avatar


magi_melcior
01.11.2014 , 04:04 AM | #6918
Quote: Originally Posted by xyrmagus View Post
First, the faction imbalance across ALL servers much more heavily favors the Empire (this is because the empire is just cooler, focus groups should have shown them this and stories and class choices should have been altered accordingly).
Really ????? Which server do you play on, I can tell you that on the Red Eclipse it is pretty even 50/50 between the Imps and the Reps in all brackets of PvP. Ofc some nights it seems that the Reps can't lose and other nights like the Imps are invincible but over the course of a week it balances out.
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cycao's Avatar


cycao
01.11.2014 , 09:41 AM | #6919
Quote: Originally Posted by MotorCityMan View Post
On Pot5 pubs run a lot of premades. Transfer there and join up. Being minority faction, most of the time there are double premades farming imp pugs like cabbages.
woah woah woah woah woah, woah, woah.....woah. You play an imp toon on PoT5?

Tevzz's Avatar


Tevzz
02.01.2014 , 10:43 PM | #6920
Quote: Originally Posted by Shiala_X View Post

Let this damn thread die already -_-"
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