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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
01.05.2014 , 11:58 AM | #6871
Quote: Originally Posted by t-darko View Post
After all this time there might be a slight confusion on what is what, and how different people enjoy their MMO in a true MMO spirit.

Pug--> bunch of randoms get together in true mmo spirit to do a WZ together against, hopefully, another bunch of randoms, who wanna do the same in true mmo spirit. If those others by 'chance' is a Premade(--->people who in true mmo spirit get together), and if they enter unranked, has a greater 'chance' to meet a bunch of randoms.

Now since a premade gets together(in true mmo spirit) pre entering the queue, while PUGs get together(in true mmo spirit) upon entering that same Queue, one could argue, by sheer deduction, that the group getting together, pre entering the queue, might have a slight advantage.

Now since 8 vs 8 WZs only exist in unranked atm, one can only conclude that this problem is forced on the community. As it is now when you pug an whole evening, you will come to recognize atleast 4 to 6 players that will on and off play together with you, there by creating some kind of functional strategy and communication. And there by having a greater chance of winning by each time, and if they do, probably will be deemed as a 'premade' by the newly arrived opponent.

Now then who owns the problem? Well, the only way to play a WZ is to enter unranked, there are no alternative if you don't want to trade punches in a Arena. As it is now the Devs own the problem, who have given us no alternative . . .

We all should start to address the problem toward those who made an old and true issue into a consistent fact, and an repelling factor of this game.
So what I got from your (well written) post is that premades have an advantage because they've been playing together. That is usually true, but it is an undeniable fact that sheer skill without voice communication or prior premade strategies can always equal and better most premades. 90% of the communication when I premade comes from what we see in game. For example, if there is a healer, we both know to focus him. No need to communicate any further - this game is not difficult on such a low level. The healer is PUGing and is not communicating with VoIP - neither do we.

The problem is that bads tend to PUG, and good players tend to premade. Good players beat bad players, another undeniable fact.

What it seems like to be is that bad players are mad that they are bad.

Imagine a situation in which better football players tended to take steroids more to (slightly) bolster their performance - bad players will complain that since steroided players are good, there is an imbalance.

While there *is* an imbalance, 90% of it is not in the steroid, but just in the skill.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
01.05.2014 , 12:27 PM | #6872
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
The problem is that bads tend to PUG, and good players tend to premade. Good players beat bad players, another undeniable fact.

What it seems like to be is that bad players are mad that they are bad.

.
I agree that good players tend to premade in games with decent matchmaking. However, in games like SWTOR where it doesn't exist then premading with a good team gets boring very fast. Most of the good players I knew early on complained about this and many of them left. I felt the same way and stopped premading over a year ago.

An example related to the one you gave I can give from real life experience in college. I used to play basketball with my friends and we weren't great (only 1 of us played in college and he went to a smaller college not the one the rest of us went to). However, we were all starters in HS. We would often play together if there were good players in the gym but when there weren't a lot of people and we knew the people we were playing sucked we would split up and make the teams more even.

That is what decently well off people who don't have emotional issues want. We want even matches and challenge.

And yes, in those examples we had more skill but that is because we chose each other and put our team together outside of that gym. The other puggers in that gym didn't have that option. It is the option to choose that makes the difference. That is why matchmaking is so needed.

Another example, is imagine 1 college team picked their team from all graduating HS players and another team was assigned graduating HS players randomly. Do you think this would be anywhere near even?

Sports like you refer to all use heavy matchmaking. They all premade and all pick their premades as best as they can and then play eachother. In this situation the "goods" do tend to premade over playing in a gym with randoms. However, this premading is based on decent matchmaking. If there wasn't decent matchmaking then no one would watch sports.

Also, when I did pug in college it was in a gym with several full courts. The different courts had different skill levels and it was rather obvious which was which. Most people stuck to their respective skill level courts and therefore there were more even matches. The people on the best court never teamed up and purposely played on the worst of the courts. That would not have been any fun.

t-darko's Avatar


t-darko
01.05.2014 , 06:00 PM | #6873
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
So what I got from your (well written) post is that premades have an advantage because they've been playing together. That is usually true, but it is an undeniable fact that sheer skill without voice communication or prior premade strategies can always equal and better most premades. 90% of the communication when I premade comes from what we see in game. For example, if there is a healer, we both know to focus him. No need to communicate any further - this game is not difficult on such a low level. The healer is PUGing and is not communicating with VoIP - neither do we.

The problem is that bads tend to PUG, and good players tend to premade. Good players beat bad players, another undeniable fact.

What it seems like to be is that bad players are mad that they are bad.

Imagine a situation in which better football players tended to take steroids more to (slightly) bolster their performance - bad players will complain that since steroided players are good, there is an imbalance.

While there *is* an imbalance, 90% of it is not in the steroid, but just in the skill.
Well, I can by a 100% state, as an undeniable fact, that you completely shoot off the target and missed the point by a very wide margin. Why? Well, first off I can use your post as hard evidence!

I'm suggesting the following;
1) A group getting together before entering the queue might have an advantage
2) Pugs that often end up in the same WZs might be perceived as a premade as they probably develop some interaction skills over time. This would probably seem even more so if they have more experience then the opponent.

You, old chap, assume that 'good' PvPers premade a lot. Undeniable facts can only be backed up with hard evidence. In other words are you just voicing an opinion.

What I further more suggest and try to argue is that in the current state of the PvP, do not allow beginners to develop their skills without facing far too competent opposition. If you can't see or realize the problem in that I could assume that you don't really care that much about the PvP in this game.

And to voice my own opinion I would claim that IF there were a demand for competitive PvP, then the 'good' PvPers on this game would start demanding exclusive Arenas and WZ so they wouldn't have to be bothered with Bads! Wonder why those post are so rare. ( aaah yes, I know, It was sooooo hard getting 8 people together to do ranked WZs AND since each and every class that gives anyone a proper beating is sooooo Over Powered it's no use queuing for Ranked Arenas, what a shocker !!!)

And on this issue;
Quote:
What it seems like to be is that bad players are mad that they are bad.
If we're being nonconstructive and just trading opinions I would state the following;
What it seems like to be is when 'good' players are mad that they are bad then they blame game mechanics and class imbalance. Just another whine, a fancy one grant you that, but still a whine ...

And don't get be started on football, rugby with pads ain't football, there's a whole world out there playing football . .

And as for the real Issue; WZs offer no alternative in it's current state. Unranked is the only place to be if you like WZs, Pugs and Premades alike and that is the problem . . .

Marrius's Avatar


Marrius
01.07.2014 , 08:46 PM | #6874
1) I want to see ranked 8v8 return.
2) I want to see ranked able to complete dailies and weeklies. I would not likely queue for normal as I would be looking to get my 55s geared as quickly as possible.

IMHO, the result of this will be less pugstomping and that is a plus for the new 55's in pvp.


PS. I also want to be able to pick up my dailies via my HUD and not have to loiter at the terminal on fleet.

MotorCityMan's Avatar


MotorCityMan
01.07.2014 , 09:08 PM | #6875
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
The problem is that bads tend to PUG, and good players tend to premade. Good players beat bad players, another undeniable fact.
While there *is* an imbalance, 90% of it is not in the steroid, but just in the skill.
This is certainly partially true, as one huge advantage premades have over pugs is pre-selection. People choose who they wish to team with, and bad and uncooperative players are not invited back and are filtered out. And there is also peer pressure to conform to the group so there is a much higher level of cooperation (teamwork) amongst premades. None of this is a bad thing. The argument is, premades know full well they have these advantages, but yet choose to compete against pugs who are on average less skilled and who do not coordinate well as a team instead of against other premades.

And why? The game allows it so it must be ok and the more skilled are entitled to farm pugs in reg wzs? The ranked queue is too long? And why is too long? Because the premades would rather be ROFL facerolling players they know going in that they can beat instead of queuing for ranked where they might face equal or better competition.

Since most players will follow the path of least resistance, it now is up to Bioware to take a stand like Blizzard has.http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/bl...ground-groups/

Draekos's Avatar


Draekos
01.07.2014 , 09:33 PM | #6876
Quote: Originally Posted by MotorCityMan View Post
Since most players will follow the path of least resistance, it now is up to Bioware to take a stand like Blizzard has.http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/bl...ground-groups/
I quit WoW at the end of TBC, but they really do get it. I love the dev comment there, calling out a bunch of their myths. Since most BW devs seem to be auditioning for a job at Blizzard let's hope they pick up on this(even though it is over a year old).
Currently playing Nhatt Sixpack on the Bastion.

Marrius's Avatar


Marrius
01.08.2014 , 02:30 AM | #6877
Quote: Originally Posted by Draekos View Post
I quit WoW at the end of TBC, but they really do get it. I love the dev comment there, calling out a bunch of their myths. Since most BW devs seem to be auditioning for a job at Blizzard let's hope they pick up on this(even though it is over a year old).
Are BWs devs really trying to get in with Blizzard? If they do maybe then we can say an element of SWTOR really iS the WoW killer

UncelSam's Avatar


UncelSam
01.09.2014 , 05:58 AM | #6878
Seems the last Days of pvp activity been at a all time low. The WZ pop are longer and longer apart in time.

Its time BW does something about the bully-hords of premades in regular WZs. But i Think it might be too late already.

Zorion's Avatar


Zorion
01.09.2014 , 08:27 AM | #6879
Quote: Originally Posted by UncelSam View Post
Seems the last Days of pvp activity been at a all time low. The WZ pop are longer and longer apart in time.

Its time BW does something about the bully-hords of premades in regular WZs. But i Think it might be too late already.
I've noticed this aswell over on Ebon Hawk.
Que times is takeing longer.

However unlike pre 23rd dec 2013 on EH soloranked wasnt popping at all, post 23rd dec 2013 its actually popping quite frequent.

Results
* more premade vs premade on either side -> better games in non-ranked.
* and alot more of the so-called leet-uber-pwnzer premades is stopping to que since they will face equal teams more frequent and they dont enjoy enjoy being roflstomped by bigger fish.

I do have a quick fix though for non-ranked imo that should fix some of the issues we who want a pure solo-que for non-ranked aswell.
While it dont fix the issue of pugs vs premades it will shift the game to be more easy to matchmake to some degree.
=
Cap the premade to only be 3 and not 4.
This will make the nonranked scene most likely abit better, since it will shake things more up with atleast 2 of the 8 slots being "open" for soloquers.

I'm afraid though that you may be right that its too little too late by Bioware.
3 months now ESO hits, and I'm guessing it will draw alot of blood from this game and most other mmo's aswell. (still not "wow", wow is jordan)

I just wish they had choosen a different approach to the servers/structre and not been doing it the way Dallas Dickinson "we want to build community" and not have xserver.
PVP in any game should have xserver the end.
Just to maximise the pool so you dont have to fight the same ppl over and over(a community isnt much with about 100-200 active pvpers like over on EH at 55 bracket, thats a socialclub)
* The bigger the pool the less "repetive it feels" when you blow up or get blown up by random ppl.
* less chance of "grudge matches"
* better matchmakeing or ability to do so most time of the day.

I'll take a 5-6 loss in huttball over a 6-0 win tbh, much more fun when its chaotic and you never known until its over.

Neoforcer's Avatar


Neoforcer
01.09.2014 , 08:42 AM | #6880
Quote: Originally Posted by Draekos View Post
I quit WoW at the end of TBC, but they really do get it. I love the dev comment there, calling out a bunch of their myths. Since most BW devs seem to be auditioning for a job at Blizzard let's hope they pick up on this(even though it is over a year old).
I break down why blizzard change was needed Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. There cross server was ment to be solo random. Ours is ment for groups play see the difference. They did it because a addon made a premade every time. We have no addon or cross server they do. A addon making a premade across all server is a hugh problem.