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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
07.24.2013 , 03:52 PM | #5431
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
actually they can sit by and do nothing. because they have for how long now?

because this is an issue firmly placed in the hands of the players, and the pushback against matchmaking suggests that even more.

the root of this problem is that bad players dont want to have to fight good players. how many times in this thread did someone complain about a premade that sucked being on their team? im pretty sure its 0.. all the complaints are about the premades that stomp on pugs.

which 9 times out of 10 is because the pugs suck. so they come here and demand the removal of premades so "they can have fun". in reality, they will still suck and still probably lose a lot. removing premades doesnt stop them from sucking.

and you dont get to make an argument and then pretend it does not apply to what you also suggest. split queues requires dev time and produce money JUST LIKE MATCHMAKING. perhaps not as much of either, but it requires them both nonetheless.

you dont get to have that argument apply to only things you disagree with.


lets say you have unlimited funding and time to complete a revamp of the WZ queue system? what system would you pursue?

ps the bolded sounds real a-holish. you the smartest man in the room?
I don't get how you say you want a constructive argument but you say stuff like this. This is nothing but you acting like unclesam only on the other end of the table. It's pathetic.

Aren't you one of the people that wanted to move forward with all this? This is why I can't trust most of you when you offer a suggestion, since you so quickly go back to the trolling like a dog in heat.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.24.2013 , 04:02 PM | #5432
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post

a split queue would result in minimal, if any, change in queue time for solo queued players. for premades, IT WILL INCREASE. there are for a fact fewer premades.
This is what is meant when someone says, "cherry-picking".

I said:

Quote:
Your claims of solo-only being easily exploitable are nullified by forcing the system to have a larger pool before it creates Warzones, as opposed to taking the first 8. "OH BUT IT WILL MAKE QUEUES LONGER". Well, no it won't. At any given time I can do a /who and find 15-20 zones open, more on peak hours.
........

If you would read the entire thought, and not single out a phrase you don't like I might take you a bit more seriously.

The thought was that a solo-only system would be less vulnerable to exploits than you would have people believe, even moreso if they did not queue the first 8, but rather 8 random from a group of 16 pugs. Queue-synching would be nullified, and it wouldn't increase queue times to do so.

Quote:
im getting a bit tired of your "smartest man in the room" attitude in all of your posts....
So... because I'm educated and informed on the topics I comment on, I'm a jerk for it? Keep your thoughts, because I couldn't care less how you think of me. You always devolve into personal attacks in every thread, often calling players "baddies", likely because it's the cool FOTM word.

Quote:
how about we talk about the merits and flaws of potential fixes for the problems that have been outlined in this thread rather than wasting time discussing "good business practices"......
Potential fixes do not matter if they do not make business sense.

Disney is interested in the long-term ventures and rewards. It's why they paid 4.5 billion for a NAME.
EA is interested in the short-term, low risk/maximum reward ventures. Your matchmaking is not either of those.
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Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
07.24.2013 , 04:16 PM | #5433
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn
A split queue would result in minimal, if any, change in queue time for solo queued players. for premades, IT WILL INCREASE. there are for a fact fewer premades.
Maybe just maybe it will increase because premades queue times are artificially short now. Premades depend on solo-queuers to give them the ready-dose-sugar-high of constant-queue, then return the favor with perma-farming. As solo players are in the majority, you premades should probably be happy you have gotten this long without being evicted.

It's because of us that you premies get to enjoy this kind of rapid-fire queue response - but if you premades left? Our queue would keep popping right along as normal.

ITS TOO BAD PEOPLE HAVE TO REPROGRAM YOUR 15 MINUTE ATTENTION SPAN BRAINS EVERY SINGLE TIME AND REMIND YOU THAT SPLIT QUEUE CAN STILL HAVE SOLO QUEUERS IN IT WHICH WOULD HELP YOUR QUEUE TIMES, just one more reason people are sick of having to deal with all of you.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
07.24.2013 , 04:22 PM | #5434
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I mean that a mechanic could be introduced when you group that takes your group's rating, and adds X onto it to represent that pre-grouped players generally have a higher probability of good composition and/or voice chat. For instance while normally this group has a rating of 200 per individual, for matchmaking they are treated as having a rating of 300 (200 + 100 rating buff).

I personally don't know how much of a rating buff grouping should dictate, or even if it should be a static number. Perhaps it could be if four rating 100's group, it's only a +50, but if four rating 900's group, it is assumed players of their rating also have great composition and voice chat and thus are buffed +200 rating.

So I'm not sure how much, but I am fairly convinced a rating buff would help balance/represent a groups tendency to have x, y, z over non-grouped.



You mentioned earlier about respecc though, and I realized there's a good reason not to remove it (entirely). It's actually key to tackling the group composition problem (at least in the higher tiers of skill). In the case of of 3 skilled 4-mans and 4 skilled pugs, the only real difference (I think we agree) between the 4 pugs and their counter balanced premade is composition, and voice.

With respecc being allowed, you literally need to have 6 snipers and/or marauders on team to not be able to get the golden 2 heals, 2 tanks, 4 dps. PuG's enter, 2 players (from either the pug or the premade) make sure they can heal (3 AC's can heal), 2 make sure they can tank, and the rest Dps.
When I said bolster, I meant the group rating buff you mentioned.

I highlighted the first two parts bold because those are the things that need to looked at and worked over. This is probably going to get really hard, since once you start adjusting stats of players, it would end up having little or huge effects. You can see from the current bolster system. I think this system has potential though.

I personally think the math part should be left for the devs. The who gets what/how much group rating buff should be clear cut I think. Maybe some sort of list.

If the max rating were 500:
500-450
450-400
in that pattern or
500-400
400-300

The bigger the gap, the bigger the advantages a lower teir group/solo pug would have. So would this group rating buff only apply to the entire team? or a single person? or an entire premade group? or the last two? If you already stated this, I missed it, sorry.

So if it's a single person, you want to avoid the group rating buff becoming like the bolster system we have now. Making them so way too godly. That's another thing that needs math that bioware can probably do, since they got all the data in front of them.

As far as respeccing, my big concern is FOTM. Since MMO's are naturally ever adapting, a new class will be a favorite compared to others. Actually I'll have to pick up the rest of this tomorrow. I figure those things I laid out are going to be concerns of mine.

At least the voice thing is settled.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.24.2013 , 04:24 PM | #5435
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
This is what is meant when someone says, "cherry-picking".

I said:


If you would read the entire thought, and not single out a phrase you don't like I might take you a bit more seriously.

The thought was that a solo-only system would be less vulnerable to exploits than you would have people believe, even moreso if they did not queue the first 8, but rather 8 random from a group of 16 pugs. Queue-synching would be nullified, and it wouldn't increase queue times to do so.
w/out the bolded change, queue syncing would be just as easy as it is now. the post i quoted makes no mention of you suggesting a random drawn from 16... how am i supposed to know you have an idea if you do not post said idea....

Quote:
So... because I'm educated and informed on the topics I comment on, I'm a jerk for it? Keep your thoughts, because I couldn't care less how you think of me. You always devolve into personal attacks in every thread, often calling players "baddies", likely because it's the cool FOTM word.
lol.

your education makes little difference to anyone. but the general tone of your posts if that of one talking down to children (your attempts to tell cycao and dooms to stop being snarky as if youre their parent.. lol)..... it undermines the credibility of your arguments the same way that mine is undermined when i call people bad.

Quote:
Potential fixes do not matter if they do not make business sense.

Disney is interested in the long-term ventures and rewards. It's why they paid 4.5 billion for a NAME.
EA is interested in the short-term, low risk/maximum reward ventures. Your matchmaking is not either of those.
guess what?

neither solution makes business sense. PvP is not dying b/c of premades. if it were, you folks would not be here anymore. yet you are, youre still PvPing and youre still paying. so explain to me how it makes any kind of business sense to make any changes at all?

in fact, the events in this game that have most negtively affected the PvP population have had to do with the more competitive aspect of PvP. death of open world PvP on ilum and the RWZ debacle are prime examples.


split queue is the less expensive solution. i agree
skills based matchmaking is the better solution b/c it offers a more comprehensive solution to the root of the pug v premade problem, and benefits all parts of the population.

we, the playerbase, are not on the EA board of directors, or w/e the people with the money are called. i consider it irresponsible to recommend a lesser suggestion b/c it not pass the EA financial test.

i will ask again, since you have yet to answer, if EA said they had unlimited funds and time to allocate to fixing this problem, and your recommendation would decide what solution they pursued, what would you recommend?

i would recommend skill based matchmaking.

and lol at the bolded. not a long term solution? smh
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
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Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.24.2013 , 04:48 PM | #5436
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
I personally think the math part should be left for the devs. The who gets what/how much group rating buff should be clear cut I think. Maybe some sort of list.
Agreed. I only used numbers as an example. The actual rating system, buff values, etc... are all things that Dev's would do, and play testing would determine.

Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
The bigger the gap, the bigger the advantages a lower teir group/solo pug would have. So would this group rating buff only apply to the entire team? or a single person? or an entire premade group? or the last two? If you already stated this, I missed it, sorry.

So if it's a single person, you want to avoid the group rating buff becoming like the bolster system we have now. Making them so way too godly. That's another thing that needs math that bioware can probably do, since they got all the data in front of them.
I'm not sure I follow, could you elaborate?

Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
As far as respeccing, my big concern is FOTM. Since MMO's are naturally ever adapting, a new class will be a favorite compared to others. Actually I'll have to pick up the rest of this tomorrow. I figure those things I laid out are going to be concerns of mine.

At least the voice thing is settled.
FOTM is something that is one of those "unsolvable situations" simply because to solve it, it requires complete class balance. Though premades/groups won't be the only one's playing FOTM either.

I think leaving respecc for the tank/heal composition helps, provided players use it. Not common among lower skill tiers, but higher ones are quite likely to use it. I am no where near high skill tier, but on my commando/merc (I have both) I tend to respecc 10 or more times a day between arsenal/gunnery for PvE, Pyro/Assault for PvP dps, and Bodyguard/Medic for PvP heals or Flashpoints.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.24.2013 , 04:55 PM | #5437
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
w/out the bolded change, queue syncing would be just as easy as it is now. the post i quoted makes no mention of you suggesting a random drawn from 16... how am i supposed to know you have an idea if you do not post said idea....
and I said...
Quote:
Your claims of solo-only being easily exploitable are nullified by forcing the system to have a larger pool before it creates Warzones, as opposed to taking the first 8. "OH BUT IT WILL MAKE QUEUES LONGER". Well, no it won't. At any given time I can do a /who and find 15-20 zones open, more on peak hours.

I did CLEARLY state what I meant.

Quote:
i will ask again, since you have yet to answer, if EA said they had unlimited funds and time to allocate to fixing this problem, and your recommendation would decide what solution they pursued, what would you recommend?

i would recommend skill based matchmaking.
That's a hypothetical.

I'll humor you anyways. Matchmaking.

Unfortunately hypotheticals are what they are.

Quote:
and lol at the bolded. not a long term solution? smh
.....



Quote:
Disney is interested in the long-term ventures and rewards. It's why they paid 4.5 billion for a NAME.
EA is interested in the short-term, low risk/maximum reward ventures. Your matchmaking is not either of those.
I don't intend to be.. demeaning or rude... but how did you gather THAT from what I said? I said Matchmaking is neither short term nor low risk/max reward...
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cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.24.2013 , 05:09 PM | #5438
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
and I said...



I did CLEARLY state what I meant.


That's a hypothetical.

I'll humor you anyways. Matchmaking.

Unfortunately hypotheticals are what they are.



.....





I don't intend to be.. demeaning or rude... but how did you gather THAT from what I said? I said Matchmaking is neither short term nor low risk/max reward...
'pull from a large queue' is not necessarily equivalent to 'draw random teams from the first available 16". i thought you were referencing the size of the solo queue in general.

i would agree that pull randomly from an available 16 player roster to make teams would be a very good solution to put a kaibosh on super queuing. it wouldnt 100% eliminate it, cuz of RNG, but it would reduce the odds of it occuring.



i was under the impression that all of this discussion was hypothetical. none of us are devs, so we have no control over anything that goes into the game. all of this is just suggestions for them to maybe look at; id rather the devs see more people supporting the best solution b/c its better, rather than writing it off b/c of potential financial reasons.


and i guess i read the last line differently from what you intended to mean. /shrug.

seems to be a large misunderstanding then.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.24.2013 , 05:53 PM | #5439
Got to say, off topic and not to start the usual finger pointing **** storm...

It's truly frustrating, premade or pug... when you call for help 3 times, adding numbers (1 inc, 3 inc, 5...) and no one shows >.<

You lose the node, struggle to get another one, promptly to lose the off node without a call.

Bad players in general ruin warzones, and only thing that's gonna stop me from having to play with bad players is a matchmaking system.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.24.2013 , 07:00 PM | #5440
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Got to say, off topic and not to start the usual finger pointing **** storm...

It's truly frustrating, premade or pug... when you call for help 3 times, adding numbers (1 inc, 3 inc, 5...) and no one shows >.<

You lose the node, struggle to get another one, promptly to lose the off node without a call.

Bad players in general ruin warzones, and only thing that's gonna stop me from having to play with bad players is a matchmaking system.
i just had this same thing happen in a novare. was even queued with 2 friends! (yes 3 man premades exist! lol) we were not in teamspeak tho.

me and my sent buddy at west, called for help in ops chat. managed to fight them off for 2 solid minutes, but nobody at south even made a move towards west. it was 100-8 when we lost west.

finally get it back, and guess what? the guy guarding south went to east...... so we lost south.

final score 0-8. oh yay.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads