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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.19.2013 , 08:09 PM | #5131
Quote: Originally Posted by Raazmir View Post
How do you know that person who complains isn't part of just like 10 or 15% of the pvpers who just happens to be very vocal?
I'm confident, based on my experience. you can nitpick it all you want. I could care less.
Krackerjäck VG | Krackerjak PT | Krackcommando | Deinon Merc | other stuff on Jedi Covenant.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.20.2013 , 12:11 PM | #5132
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
You're playing semantics.

To deny that the majority doesn't like getting stomped by bullies (yes.. I said it) is indicative of lunacy. To also suggest that those same people don't want the bullies out of their playtime by whatever means necessary is indicative of a mental condition so far out there that hasn't been assigned a word yet.

It's exactly the same as saying that a kid being bullied at school, getting swirlies and having his lunch money taken from him, wouldn't want the bullies to go somewhere else.
Sorry Maverick, gonna have to call you on this one.

A highly competitive 4-man (the main issue of this thread) is not akin to a bully. They literally have no where else to play and are just as entitled to be in the general population as average joe who doesn't like them. There is no inherent malice in their queue'ing, and as stated before they have no control over the ability of their opponents.


I personally object to these "examples" (yours, Sharee's, etc...) that are highly inflammatory by using children in them. A PuG or Casual is not a child, they are adults (presumably) fully capable of defending themselves or retreating to a safe place when in a stressful situation. A child doesn't have the same mental ability, maturity, or wisdom and the effects of such trauma is long lasting, devastating, and in some cases lethal. To compare anything a Premade can do within the scope of the game to an the effects of bullying is disrespectful to the actual victims of bullying.


Finally, and this isn't directed at you though it is something you just stated:

People need to stop propagating this false argument:

Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
As Fox said, we all know matching is ideal. The likelihood of it being implemented, however, is in all probability extremely low. There's a much better chance that split queues are installed, and thats an amicable solution for the masses.
Not only is the "probability" of either matchmaking or split queue's unknown, it is irrelevant. The argument boils essentially down to:

Split queue's are easy to implement and should be considered based on this.

Simple solutions that lead to complex problems are still not good solutions. I linked a few threads from the rift forum which highlighted and shows real effects of split queue's. A short highlight:

Long/Non-existent group queue.
Extremely long queue's for groups of 3.
Groups queue syncing as solo to get a match.
PuG's still complaining about lopsided matches
PuG's still complaining about gear/level/abilities/heals/team comp.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
07.20.2013 , 12:25 PM | #5133
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
two comments:
  • there will never be a solution to balancing teams by skill. it's far too complicated, so any solution MUST be a roundabout one (valor, rating, solo-only, etc.).
  • I think you (impersonal) are wasting your breath by designing imaginary queue systems that take this, that, or the other thing into account, work down a pyramid structure of variables, etc. I don't deny that they'd lead to better WZs than a solo-only option. however, let's be realistic here, you might as well be asking for x-server queues. who ISN'T all for that? the fact of the matter is, BW either lacks the resources, be they capital or command of their own code, or just doesn't care (not a single yellow post in 500+ pages). you're living in denial if you think such a queue system is remotely possible in the next year or two. creating a SEPARATE QUEUE, while less effective, is a MUCH SIMPLER DESIGN VARIABLE and might get worked in between cartel market updates.

:2cents:
I personally think matchmaking is pie in the sky because there's no realistic way to quantify what they suggest; because there's nothing to base it off of. If their win rate comes from premading, who's to really say how skilled they are? I'm not willing to call group dynamics skill, that's like saying game mechanics = talent. To me, they're all just hiding behind those; they want to call game mechanics skill; they want to prop up their artificial win rate as 'evidence' of ability. We have 500 pages of them vehemently denying that premading offers any substantial benefit at all, which makes pretty much everything they have to say bogus. If they can't admit the nose on their face there's no use listening to their false arguments. Then you corner them on the mountain of evidence to the contrary, then they admit it, then they spend the next ten pages acting like it hasn't been established; then you corner them on it; then they admit it again; then they spend the next ten pages acting like there is no benefit to premading again. BW has given them a piece of cake and they don't care what kind of BS they have to spew to continue mongering their cake.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***

akabane_k's Avatar


akabane_k
07.20.2013 , 01:16 PM | #5134
Quote: Originally Posted by Comfterbilly View Post
I personally think matchmaking is pie in the sky because there's no realistic way to quantify what they suggest; because there's nothing to base it off of. If their win rate comes from premading, who's to really say how skilled they are? I'm not willing to call group dynamics skill, that's like saying game mechanics = talent. To me, they're all just hiding behind those; they want to call game mechanics skill; they want to prop up their artificial win rate as 'evidence' of ability. We have 500 pages of them vehemently denying that premading offers any substantial benefit at all, which makes pretty much everything they have to say bogus. If they can't admit the nose on their face there's no use listening to their false arguments. Then you corner them on the mountain of evidence to the contrary, then they admit it, then they spend the next ten pages acting like it hasn't been established; then you corner them on it; then they admit it again; then they spend the next ten pages acting like there is no benefit to premading again. BW has given them a piece of cake and they don't care what kind of BS they have to spew to continue mongering their cake.
if they always premade, it doesnt matter if their wins come from individual skill or from their premading. Their rating will be based off of wins, so those that premade and win will be placed with lower skilled people and go to a 50% win rate, regardless of skill.

And stop whining about how bioware gave premades a cake. The correct analogy is that they offered everyone a cake, you refused it and now complain that they have cake and you don't.

Raazmir's Avatar


Raazmir
07.20.2013 , 01:37 PM | #5135
My point is that as sure as some people here are about their data, they don't actually have data, they have a few anecdotal experiences, no actual numbers on # of players, class breakdown % of those players who pvp, % of those players who participate in premadeing warzones....

There's a whole lot of data that we as players don't have. I'm not saying the argument doesn't have its points because it does, but no one has the info to legitimately claim "most" players are on their side.

Edit: I for one wouldn't be caught dead in reg warzones outside of having at least 1 or 2 other friends I know and trust to play with. If splitting the ques led to lengthy que pops i'd probably just stop pvping entirely.
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foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.20.2013 , 01:59 PM | #5136
Quote: Originally Posted by Comfterbilly View Post
I personally think matchmaking is pie in the sky because there's no realistic way to quantify what they suggest; because there's nothing to base it off of. If their win rate comes from premading, who's to really say how skilled they are? I'm not willing to call group dynamics skill, that's like saying game mechanics = talent. To me, they're all just hiding behind those; they want to call game mechanics skill; they want to prop up their artificial win rate as 'evidence' of ability. We have 500 pages of them vehemently denying that premading offers any substantial benefit at all, which makes pretty much everything they have to say bogus. If they can't admit the nose on their face there's no use listening to their false arguments. Then you corner them on the mountain of evidence to the contrary, then they admit it, then they spend the next ten pages acting like it hasn't been established; then you corner them on it; then they admit it again; then they spend the next ten pages acting like there is no benefit to premading again. BW has given them a piece of cake and they don't care what kind of BS they have to spew to continue mongering their cake.
well, I disagree with you here. the problem with premades is that they allow the best players to determine the fact that they are always on the same team. other ppl premade too. I could care less if 4 average ppl are always on the same team. they're not going to tilt the WZ one way or another. and it's not like having the best players on the same team is some sort of sin. but having them ALWAYS on the same team, especially late night when there's only one or two games going at a time, is extremely frustrating. when I'm on their team, I can just afk. when I'm not on their team, we lack the skill to compete. either way, they're unfun WZs. but I definitely would not say that premades are full of mediocre players getting carried. in fact, it's the good players who constantly run in packs that are the "problem," such as it is.
Krackerjäck VG | Krackerjak PT | Krackcommando | Deinon Merc | other stuff on Jedi Covenant.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.20.2013 , 02:19 PM | #5137
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Sorry Maverick, gonna have to call you on this one.

A highly competitive 4-man (the main issue of this thread) is not akin to a bully. They literally have no where else to play and are just as entitled to be in the general population as average joe who doesn't like them. There is no inherent malice in their queue'ing, and as stated before they have no control over the ability of their opponents.
.
No, they don't have another place to stroke their egos and trick themselves into thinking they are somehow superior to everyone else.

Neither does that bully at school. He has no control over the "toughness" (that's essentially how you described "victims of bullying") of those around him. He has nowhere else to flex his SUPERWOWZOMGZUSUK muscles, so he should be entitled to stay in GP, right? RIGHT? That's the argument you made. It's wrong, it's morally reprehensible, and above all it's more than a bit apathetic.

The point is... bullies are held in check by those who would stand against them, be it principles, other students, the cops (sometimes)..

Premades (competitive, you know) are taking the SAME ACTIONS, but not being policed or held in check at all. It needs to stop, and to argue against that stance puts you on a moral level with them.

Stop arguing semantically, dissecting every half-sentence and extracting what you wish from it. Take the idea as a whole, and you might make some headway into understanding why they are exactly the same.





No, you can't be a "real bully" in a video game. You can, however, exhibit the same patterns of behavior that bullies do.

That's enough for most to draw the parallel.
Mavërïck

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.20.2013 , 02:23 PM | #5138
the bully analogy fails b/c you can beat a bully by standing up to them and beating them at their own game (unless youre a pacifist)

if premades are bullies, perhaps folks should sack up and stand up to them?

premades =/= bullies. just like premades =/= rapists.

please stop attempting to draw parallels between grouping in an MMO to physically violent/socially unacceptable activities.

you guys get all in a huff when i call folks "window lickers"; yet ive been called a ra.pist, a bully, and who knows what else b/c massive cba to read every post in this thread.

get some perspective
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foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.20.2013 , 02:32 PM | #5139
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Sorry Maverick, gonna have to call you on this one.

A highly competitive 4-man (the main issue of this thread) is not akin to a bully. They literally have no where else to play and are just as entitled to be in the general population as average joe who doesn't like them. There is no inherent malice in their queue'ing, and as stated before they have no control over the ability of their opponents.
.
don't get me wrong, I"m not accusing all premades of this nor all skilled premades. however, I've been in numerous WZs in which premades run by the same two/three guilds absolutely dominate and then taunt the other team by refraining from capping doors or scoring a 6th goal. they do it to frustrate, humiliate/degrade their opponents and to waste everyone else's time. they get off on it. it's the definition of bullying.

you will also find very highly skilled premades who queue regs and screw around in them for gits and shiggles, playing with exploits and ignoring objectives intentionally because, to them, regs aren't the game. it's just an opportunity to troll and kill time. I'm not sure if that's bullying/griefing, but I do lump it in the same category.

this has nothing to do with the topic of banning premades or such. just throwing in my 2 cents on the cyber-bullying in-game. it's very real. it's been reported. I have no idea if BW actually does anything about it because it's standard policy NOT to tell the accuser if any action is taken. hell, I can't even get BW to confirm whether such behavior is punishable or not. even a simple confirmation is beyond their wonderful "protocol droids."
Krackerjäck VG | Krackerjak PT | Krackcommando | Deinon Merc | other stuff on Jedi Covenant.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
07.20.2013 , 02:51 PM | #5140
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
please stop attempting to draw parallels between grouping in an MMO to physically violent/socially unacceptable activities.

you guys get all in a huff when i call folks "window lickers"; yet ive been called a ra.pist, a bully, and who knows what else b/c massive cba to read every post in this thread.

get some perspective
The potentials of human behavior don't have an 'on/off' switch that's deactivated the minute a person logs into an MMO. You're making a false argument. People are capable of the same extremes of behavior inside a game that they're capable outside the game. In fact, these extremes are probably more outsized than they would be in real life the same way LOTS of behavior is amplified over the internet, minus the consequences of actually having to be accountable for our transgressions. Depending on the team, there are a lot of parallels. The nature of behavior doesn't change just because it occurs in a digital format. There is a lot of seedy and sh**y behavior going on on a regular basis, committed in the case of premades by people who are taking advantage of a broken queue; looking for pugs to roll because the watchers aren't watching and they get off on it; they say a lot of degrading **** over the general/say channels, as their goal is to ruin other peoples experience, because that's the behavior they are allowed to enjoy by a team of pvp devs who don't give a damn about the game itself.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***