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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
07.18.2013 , 12:44 PM | #5011
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
This suggestion is a touch naive. Except for two servers, the others don't and will likely never have the thriving pvp community necessary for your matchmaking solution to work regularly as the pool being drawn from just isn't large enough. Cross server is the only way that could ever work, and BW has repeatedly inferred that their cruddy, cobbled engine can't support it.

So in the end, by suggesting "matchmaking for even teams first, hopeless premade v pug mismatch if that fails," what you're really suggesting is a retention of the status quo on most servers because the latter will occur more often than the former.

If solo puggers had their own dedicated queue, the casuals that dominate the populations of MMO pvp would have a safe place to play where they can just catass around and have mindless fun (which is the direction gaming is going in the modern world anyway). Instead this vast majority of players get alienated and leave, and we (the hardcore pvpers) lose the money they would have brought to the game. Queue times dry up, everyone loses.

The only ones losing if they separate the queues are premades, who are a very small minority in mmo pvp. I'm comfortable with that. So are industry leaders like Blizzard, who realize that alienating the bulk of your pvp base to satisfy the desires of the few hurts your bottom line.

What's the solution?

Not really sure there is one that will work. I'm all for solo-only queue toggle, because it would minimize the problem. Even if premades try to 'beat the system' by queuing up at the same time, they'll still end up divided between teams in same-faction matches so that's already an improvement. But the potential for cheating the system remains.

The only real lasting solution is cross server matchmaking, which is really what everyone should be clamoring for from the mountaintops. BW says they don't care to do it or simply can't handle it, but that's really where the answer is.
You have my 110% support on this entire post. As far as I'm concerned, this is /thread level type post.

Matchmaking only works with cross-server queues and even then you need a solo queue toggle option.

The End.

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TridusSWTOR
07.18.2013 , 12:47 PM | #5012
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
its funny that the pro-solo queue people think they are in the majority.
It's funny that premades say they don't want lopsided matches.

Yet...matchmaking on low pop servers. Lulz.

Debunked.

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otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 12:52 PM | #5013
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I will respond to your longer post in time but first.


I beg to differ.

A grouped player has already done more than the Solo player. They found 3 other people to play with.
The Solo player is telling the grouped player they should find 7 people.

3 < 7.

Is the grouped player particularly right (especially if done in a rude manner)? No...

But there is a big difference between someone saying "do as I have done and succeed" vs. "Do more than I will so I don't have to deal with you."
Not the same thing.

Premades are CHOOSING to pre-group for an advantage or to "play with friends." Either way, it is something they are choosing to do for their own enjoyment and satisfaction. Very few are doing it because they feel they must in order to be competitive. Most would do it regardless of whether they're facing mostly PUGs or other premades on a given night. It's not work for them; it's fun.

Solo puggers choose to solo queue for their own enjoyment. Asking them to "work harder" to be on the same level as you is essentially saying that you're entitled to enjoy the game the way you want to (pre-grouping) but they are not entitled to enjoy the game the way they want (playing solo).

For someone who enjoys running premades, forming a group is not work. It's done naturally, and often enhances the participants' fun. For someone who hates running premades it's just flat work.

If premades are telling soloers that they have to work before they can be allowed to have fun, then soloers are well within their rights to demand the same of you---work harder, and go do rateds to be competitive with the other teams there.

I point out again that both of these arguments are highly flawed. Neither has a place in this argument because everyone is entitled to have fun PvPing the way they want to.

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TridusSWTOR
07.18.2013 , 12:54 PM | #5014
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
here ill post this again
Here I'll post this again.

3 premades 4 solo pugs. All the same skill get put in the match due to "the wonderful world of matchmaking". They are the only ones in queue at the skill level so the 4 solo pugs always face a double premade with a great comp.

Glad you support lopsided matches.

You have been debunked.

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Doomsdaycomes
07.18.2013 , 12:54 PM | #5015
On a related note to the Blizzard discussion...

This: Blizzard Takes a Stand Against...

and the source: Dev Post

are dated December 5th and 4th, 2012 accordingly.

This: Blizzard lost 1.3 subscribers in the last 3 months

is dated May 5th, 2013 and references the report for the first quarter (which if I'm not mistaken is the quarter that starts around/shortly after New Year).

It reads that WoW has lost 4 mill subscribers over the past 2 years, and 1.3 mil in the last 3 months (that's 25% of their lost subs in a 3 month span).

Now I know this is making a little inference but... What "big" change was made 3-4 months prior to that sudden mass exodus?
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 12:57 PM | #5016
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I'm saying: We don't know what works any more. Neither does Blizzard. You can say "oh, they wouldn't do something without being sure!" all you like but until we see the minutes from their Dev meeting and their statistics... O.o we don't know! So using them as the "industry leader did it!" can only be done if you ignore that their losing their customers (at an alarming rate).

As for Policing people and Systems preventing etc...

<.< Sounds to me like a matchmaking system would do that.
We have no idea who's leaving or why. It might be the PvEers who are tired of EZmode content. It might be people who've finally gotten bored with a near ten year old game. It might be PvPers tired of the same battlegrounds. On that point, you're correct that we have no data. I'm not certain if Blizzard has come out and commented on this, but again---for my money, it's probably the same reason as most other MMOs: attention span, boredom with the format, and changes in demographics.

What we DO have information about is why Blizzard chose to separate their pvp populations and not allow solo puggers to play against premades. That part is not mysterious at all, as they've been very transparent about it. Other MMOs are also beginning to follow suit (I believe Rift separates premades from pugs, but correct me if I'm thinking of another game).

It's really simple guys. If casuals in THAT game vocally hate being farmed by coordinated teams, why in the world would you think casuals in THIS game would be cool with it?

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TridusSWTOR
07.18.2013 , 12:57 PM | #5017
Quote: Originally Posted by DimeStax View Post
I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.
Bottom line is once one team in 4vs4 arena's starts steam rolling every other team. 4vs4 won't happen, just like how ranked is only an option on two servers now.

History supports me, how about you? Oh wait, baseless assumptions and hyperbole is all you have to offer.

You have been debunked.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 12:58 PM | #5018
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I'm saying: We don't know what works any more. Neither does Blizzard. You can say "oh, they wouldn't do something without being sure!" all you like but until we see the minutes from their Dev meeting and their statistics... O.o we don't know! So using them as the "industry leader did it!" can only be done if you ignore that their losing their customers (at an alarming rate).

As for Policing people and Systems preventing etc...

<.< Sounds to me like a matchmaking system would do that.
A matchmaking system would only accomplish what you suggest if there were a population pool big enough to discriminate. On all but probably 2 servers, there is not. So again, what you are suggesting is a retention of the status quo; a solution that will change nothing and still favor the pugstompers.

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otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 01:01 PM | #5019
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
On a related note to the Blizzard discussion...

This: Blizzard Takes a Stand Against...

and the source: Dev Post

are dated December 5th and 4th, 2012 accordingly.

This: Blizzard lost 1.3 subscribers in the last 3 months

is dated May 5th, 2013 and references the report for the first quarter (which if I'm not mistaken is the quarter that starts around/shortly after New Year).

It reads that WoW has lost 4 mill subscribers over the past 2 years, and 1.3 mil in the last 3 months (that's 25% of their lost subs in a 3 month span).

Now I know this is making a little inference but... What "big" change was made 3-4 months prior to that sudden mass exodus?
Come on; this is silly and you're reaching. The only thing that is immediately, obviously accurate in your post is that you're making an inference. And it's not a little one, it's a huge one.

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Doomsdaycomes
07.18.2013 , 01:02 PM | #5020
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
Not the same thing.

Premades are CHOOSING to pre-group for...

I point out again that both of these arguments are highly flawed. Neither has a place in this argument because everyone is entitled to have fun PvPing the way they want to.
Again disagree once more.

The group player is telling the PuG to group to win (or have fun, though fun is subjective.) The group player is quite happy and has already made the effort to do "something" beyond hitting the queue button to win.

The PuG is the unhappy one. He tells the group player "Go do more effort than you already have, to play somewhere else so I can have my win/fun."

Very different statements. A is telling B to work harder to have their (B's) own win/fun/whatever while the other is B telling A to work harder so they (B) can have their (B's) win/fun/whatever.

We do agree (and this is a place I've particularly grown myself) that neither really solves anything.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.