Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.18.2013 , 11:03 AM | #5001
Quote: Originally Posted by DimeStax View Post
Or you can just stick to PvE, where you can actually kill stuff and feel good about yourself.
^

What they said. Seriously, if I see one more post about how 4-man's should go play 8-man content, I'm going to start calling my congressmen and demand that schools start teaching arithmetic again! Republicans, the budget cuts have gone too far!
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

Boch's Avatar


Boch
07.18.2013 , 11:30 AM | #5002
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
where did you read I do premades on regular warzones.

solo que for life, that's the price I pay for having 2 jobs, life and being in pve, social friendly guild
This assumption gets me every time-if you support matchmaking you do premades.
The truth is-if you support matchmaking you want a long term fix that will benefit everyone.
Konts of <Ascension>
Rolling with a pocket guard since 2.0.

sanchito's Avatar


sanchito
07.18.2013 , 11:58 AM | #5003
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
why should i care that the people i am playing against suck?
because it's boring if they do and fun and challenging if they don't?

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 11:58 AM | #5004
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I say it's irrelevant because (besides it is!) SWtor doesn't have Blizzard numbers or system. Blizzard has multiple cross-server tools/systems, larger numbers, puppies, pandas, etc... that Swtor does not.

Furthermore, I don't think Blizzard is wrong in taking action against very specific toxic players. I think they took the wrong action. My point about their arena criticism is simple... they can be wrong. I think they're wrong about this too. It would have been better to take decisive action against individuals of this anti-player mentality (ie, those who use the "So and So just rage quit!" add-on, etc..) rather than a blanket solution. The only thing Blizzard did there was save money on a one-shot mechanic change rather than policing their players. Only time will tell if their new found solution is God's gift to it's player-base, or another "mistake" they'll regret later.

Finally I pose this question; "If Blizzards so great... why are they bleeding subs too? They've lost 4mil subs in the last 2 years, and 1.3mil of that is with the last 5 months."

Forbes article, posted 5/9/13 Don't tell me Forbes isn't a reliable source.
MMOs in general are all more or less bleeding subs these days. I believe that's been the trend for some years now, sadly. I'm not sure whether I blame iphone apps or cheap games on Steam, but the attention span of the average gamer is getting shorter and shorter, with fewer people interested in dedicating to a game over the long haul. Blizzard is trying to adapt to that changing market, but BW is not (except by tacking on a torturous FTP model and the cash shop).

Obviously, talking pandas didn't help either.

And you're still missing the point. BW doesn't have the engine or the population to support Blizzard's solutions because BW has mishandled their game from the word go, both in general and specifically as relates to PvP. Blizzard does NOT make sweeping business decisions willy nilly... if they did, WoW would not have been the gold standard MMO and entry point for new MMO players for almost a decade now.

If their research and player base/business metrics say that the casuals don't want to play against premades, then you can pretty much guarantee that's true by a landslide.

Policing the pugstompers is a very naive suggestion, let's be honest. It's a deeply unsettling and unfortunate facet of human nature that most of us love to seek out unfair advantages whenever possible and don't give a whit about our anonymous fellow gamers, and a portion of us will always group into tribes to pick on other tribes. You can't police human nature person by person, that's like counting grains of sand on a beach. What's needed is a system that prevents that hardcore minority from indulging it in the first place.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 12:02 PM | #5005
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
^

What they said. Seriously, if I see one more post about how 4-man's should go play 8-man content, I'm going to start calling my congressmen and demand that schools start teaching arithmetic again! Republicans, the budget cuts have gone too far!
Premaders telling solo puggers to suck it up and get a group together ("if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") is no different than solo queuers telling Premaders to suck it up and get 4 more guys to do ranked.

I don't support either argument, for the record. But I believe that's the irony that people are trying to point out.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 12:05 PM | #5006
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
its whining.

wallbanging is an exploit whether its done by someone in a premade or someone that queued solo. yet you are complaining that somehow it is a major problem with premades? get real.


grouping is going to be discouraged in our game. said no MMO developer ever.


also, when presented with real solutions to the problem, you claim that we need a "interim" solution. aka, a solo only queue. no, we do not need a solo only queue.

we need skill based matchmaking. we need a RWZ system that is more accessible. RWZ needs matchmakning. and we are getting arenas, which will pull some of the 4-man groups out of regs (particularly those players from RWZ teams that arent able to form a full 8-man group).

and as has been said by me and many, many others, this is a problem directly related to the skill level of the average player. if each person tried to improve their own gameplay a little bit each day, this wouldnt be nearly as much of a problem.
yet i see players every day that somehow are incapable of even earning the 90k damage/healing medal? yeah, its definitely the premades fault that you lost
Joining a queue to do a WZ is grouping. Your method of grouping with people (before queueing up, and by coordinated effort) is not by default better or more appropriate than someone using the WZ grouping tool to group with other players at random.

Also,

"grouping is going to be discouraged in our game. said no MMO developer ever."

As many above have exhaustively point out over and over, at least two developers have gone on public record discouraging premades vs. pugs. One is an MMO developer you maaaay have heard of, called Blizzard.

No one is discouraging you from grouping, friend. They're trying to discourage you from grouping against people who have not. That isn't the same thing.

A solo player is not less entitled to have fun than you are. Please try to remember that.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.18.2013 , 12:13 PM | #5007
Quote: Originally Posted by DimeStax View Post
I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.
You say this, friend, but given BW's long track record of botched features and the pvp community's response to them, I'm not hopeful. It's far more likely that this 4v4 will end up as another train wreck experiment like RWZs where the few truly elite teams (or OP comps) will dominate and the lesser premades will skulk back to the regs to get their confidence back by squashing pug teams. It happened with preseason 1, I don't see why this will be any different.

You have to understand: people are not ************ about the truly competitive top-tier teams that only play rateds. They're ************ about the teams that use puggers as practice dummies or a good "LOL" for a few hours when they can't get a rated match going.

I'm also not a casual player. I love PvP and it's the only reason I'm in TOR, but I don't enjoy squash matches so I don't run premades. I prefer competition and the chaos of a pug WZ to endless stalemates or one-sided curbstompings.

You're also beating a strange dead horse. Obviously nothing will ever guarantee a perfectly balanced match. No one has suggested any solution will. But you will ALWAYS have a better shot at attaining something resembling a level playing field when the goods and bads are distributed equally rather than having most of the goods on one side before the match even starts.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.18.2013 , 12:37 PM | #5008
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
Premaders telling solo puggers to suck it up and get a group together ("if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") is no different than solo queuers telling Premaders to suck it up and get 4 more guys to do ranked.

I don't support either argument, for the record. But I believe that's the irony that people are trying to point out.
I will respond to your longer post in time but first.


I beg to differ.

A grouped player has already done more than the Solo player. They found 3 other people to play with.
The Solo player is telling the grouped player they should find 7 people.

3 < 7.

Is the grouped player particularly right (especially if done in a rude manner)? No...

But there is a big difference between someone saying "do as I have done and succeed" vs. "Do more than I will so I don't have to deal with you."
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.18.2013 , 12:41 PM | #5009
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
MMOs in general are all more or less bleeding subs these days. I believe that's been the trend for some years now, sadly. I'm not sure whether I blame iphone apps or cheap games on Steam, but the attention span of the average gamer is getting shorter and shorter, with fewer people interested in dedicating to a game over the long haul. Blizzard is trying to adapt to that changing market, but BW is not (except by tacking on a torturous FTP model and the cash shop).

Obviously, talking pandas didn't help either.

And you're still missing the point. BW doesn't have the engine or the population to support Blizzard's solutions because BW has mishandled their game from the word go, both in general and specifically as relates to PvP. Blizzard does NOT make sweeping business decisions willy nilly... if they did, WoW would not have been the gold standard MMO and entry point for new MMO players for almost a decade now.

If their research and player base/business metrics say that the casuals don't want to play against premades, then you can pretty much guarantee that's true by a landslide.

Policing the pugstompers is a very naive suggestion, let's be honest. It's a deeply unsettling and unfortunate facet of human nature that most of us love to seek out unfair advantages whenever possible and don't give a whit about our anonymous fellow gamers, and a portion of us will always group into tribes to pick on other tribes. You can't police human nature person by person, that's like counting grains of sand on a beach. What's needed is a system that prevents that hardcore minority from indulging it in the first place.
I'm saying: We don't know what works any more. Neither does Blizzard. You can say "oh, they wouldn't do something without being sure!" all you like but until we see the minutes from their Dev meeting and their statistics... O.o we don't know! So using them as the "industry leader did it!" can only be done if you ignore that their losing their customers (at an alarming rate).

As for Policing people and Systems preventing etc...

<.< Sounds to me like a matchmaking system would do that.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
07.18.2013 , 12:42 PM | #5010
Quote: Originally Posted by MitchPB View Post
494 pages and you people still don't understand why this is never going to happen
Because people want their lopsided matches.

Don't worry, I understand perfectly fine.