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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
07.02.2013 , 06:51 AM | #4111
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
That means the new "group queue" suffers from the difficulties of filling in spots
Even if true, and the 'group queue' would suffer from difficulties because a solo-only toggle was introduced, it would not suffer because of the toggle, but because the players who used it do not enjoy playing against groups

It is their free time they are spending with the game. Their fun should come first, It should not be sacrificed just so that someone else's queues do not suffer. Suggesting that some players should be put into matches they do not enjoy (and be prevented from avoiding such matches) just to preserve queue times for other players is preposterous.

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
07.02.2013 , 06:54 AM | #4112
Quote: Originally Posted by Technohic View Post
What you wind up doing, without having better matchmaking; is you wind up putting those who solo queue with the option of facing premades in a higher chance of facing premades.
That is true, however the people who solo queue without using the toggle are those who do not mind facing premades. Thus the higher chance of facing them is not a problem.

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
07.02.2013 , 07:12 AM | #4113
Quote: Originally Posted by Sharee View Post
That is true, however the people who solo queue without using the toggle are those who do not mind facing premades. Thus the higher chance of facing them is not a problem.
I would be one of those people, ordinarily. Its what I am getting at by saying it is equally as fun to be teamed up with the premades as the ones that cause the solo queuers the real issues, are the ones that know what they are doing. The problem is that the real issue would still not be addressed by the solo only check box in that it seems (just from experience) that the sytem puts 2 4-man premades together rather than spilt them up and add the solo-q people to them.

Its not that big of a problem now as there is one large pool for everyone. You make it to where you can check to solo only; then you magnify that issue to where maybe I wouldn't want the option to face premades any more. (or maybe I would, if the talent of PUGs that gets in that grouping proved to actually be higher)

It's a matter of addressing the symptom vs curing the real issue and I feel the real issue is matchmaking. Skill based and even just plain out number based (groups of 4 not being paired together with another group of 4)
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Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
07.02.2013 , 08:30 AM | #4114
Quote: Originally Posted by Sharee View Post
Even if true, and the 'group queue' would suffer from difficulties because a solo-only toggle was introduced, it would not suffer because of the toggle, but because the players who used it do not enjoy playing against groups

It is their free time they are spending with the game. Their fun should come first, It should not be sacrificed just so that someone else's queues do not suffer. Suggesting that some players should be put into matches they do not enjoy (and be prevented from avoiding such matches) just to preserve queue times for other players is preposterous.
The issue, is that players don't know what they want because 90% of them don't understand how PvP works. It's not that the players who would use a solo toggle don't want to play against groups, they actually just want to feel like they had a chance in the warzone. Understandably, PvP is more fun when you feel like you had the chance to win even if you didn't.

There are a few solutions to this that have been offered:

1) Improve their play both individually and in terms of teamwork and objectives in the current system
- Non premade players can have success against premades, so it's not impossible as some would claim
- By facing better competition, players see what it takes to be really successful and boost the competitive community (aka ranked)
- Is hard on the more casual player that is not at all interested in being the best, just wants to escape everyday life
- Based on forum feedback, I don't see players liking this option because they lose too often while getting better

2) Skill based matchmaking
- Has them face opponents of equal skill, regardless of grouping (group rating buff could be added if necessary)
- Only allows unbalanced matches when it's the only option available
- Takes time to sort out rankings, so there will be growing pains
- System won't be perfect, so your rating will be determined by other's play as well
- I'm yet to see anyone against matchmaking, the only argument has been that matches will still be unbalanced when the population is low, but hey, at least you can get some comms still
-Offers the most even match that can be made at the time given the population queuing

3) Solo Queue
- Ensures PUGs will never see a group
- Ensures groups will never see a PUG
- Logistical nightmare with different sized groups queuing (3 man groups being the biggest issue) from 2 factions
- Split queue lowers the population in both queues and at extremely low populations could cause games not to pop when enough people are actually queued, just not the right amounts in the right queues to make a game
- Those who group typically have a higher skill level, so it will be the hardest on more casual groups of friends in the group queue
- No guarantee either queue will have even matches, so the solo queue will still suffer the same issues that plague reg queues as it is.

4) Solo Toggle
- Ensure PUGs will never see a group if they don't choose to
- Groups will still see PUGs if they choose to toggle on
- Helps with some of the logistics of the group queue as compared to true solo queue
- Still splits much of the population to higher queue times for all and most solo queuers will still have to toggle on regardless of what they want to get pops regularly on lower population servers
- No guarantee any game has even matches, so there will still be numerous unbalanced games.

I think this is a pretty good summary of what I've seen in this thread. Honestly, I had an all PUG team that destroyed a premade in ACW last night. Three capped most of the match. We had good players and they didn't, so I don't know why people still want a solo queue of any kind knowing that this will still happen without matchmaking. I'm still a fan of option 1, but understand not everyone is out to be the best, so number 2 seems to work well. Let those who just want to have fun play their matches and if you get better you'll be matched with better opponents.
I have opinions and stuff

islander's Avatar


islander
07.02.2013 , 08:54 AM | #4115
In a perfect world, every individual player would have a rating, much like ranked. Put teams together that would be fairly balanced for warzones, grouped or not. Make quitting in the middle of a match (or disconnecting, yes) count as a loss. It'd be challenging to do right though, these coders and this Frankenstein of a code base likely make it an impossibility.

They've screwed up bolster for now three months now, can you imagine how bad this would go?
Gėllies Erimosi, Imperial Deadeye
<Hex> Prophecy of the Five

TheCourier-'s Avatar


TheCourier-
07.02.2013 , 09:16 AM | #4116
Individual rating systems would be awful. Playing against ranked WZ teams in regular queues. because my 4 person premade could get assigned a team where the other 4 people are 5/10 players who win a lot of WZs, would not be fun. That would be a case where my team. at say 2200 rating, gets assigned an 1800 rating team to fight say Hey I'm MVP or Casual's alts that the system assigned a double premade of, at say 2000 rating (since they are alts). The result would be that the 1800 rating premade that my premade was assigned on our team would cause my premade to lose. The matchmaking system doesn't work outside of ranked, where all 8 players are specifically chosen by the team captain.

The WZ queue system works fine as is. Now that a lot of PVPers are on Pot5 or The Bastion, superqueueing ranked WZ teams in regular queues isn't as prevalent as pre server transfers (superqueues were very common on Jedi Covenant, due to how easy the queue system was to manipulate since there weren't a lot of people queueing).
Multiple characters on Pot5

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.02.2013 , 09:55 AM | #4117
Quote: Originally Posted by Sharee View Post
It is their free time they are spending with the game. Their fun should come first, It should not be sacrificed just so that someone else's queues do not suffer. Suggesting that some players should be put into matches they do not enjoy (and be prevented from avoiding such matches) just to preserve queue times for other players is preposterous.
To be honest, this is a very, very, very unrealistic ( and a bit selfish) statement. This isn't a jab at you.

Your "fun" in Player vs. Player is entirely at the mercy of other players, or your definition of "Fun." To enter into Player vs. Player, it is always a competition and your opponent always has control over how much of a challenge you face. Why? ...Because they are the one's who control how challenging they are. So no matter how "even," "fair," "etc..." the system is, there will always be players placed into matches they do not enjoy. The only true way for a player to enjoy all their matches is... for their attitude/view to change. (This of course, is asking too much of the standard Player).

I believe there are ways (matchmaking, getting better, changing attitude) to minimize the amount of control another player can have on you, but PvP by definition prohibits a player from having a lot of control over their experience. If players did have control over their opponents difficulty it would be called... PvE.



On a side note: I'd also like to note a player is not prevented from avoiding a Premade vs. PuG situation now. It's called "Leave Warzone" and it can be located by clicking the glowing icon down by your mini-map. I think we can do better, but please don't tell me PuG's have no options to avoid a "stomp." They have at least 1 (2 if you count grouping up/getting better)... they just don't like it. It doesn't favor them.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
07.02.2013 , 11:54 AM | #4118
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
To be honest, this is a very, very, very unrealistic ( and a bit selfish) statement. This isn't a jab at you.
I disagree.

It is selfish when you demand other players to do something just so you can have fun, even if they do not want to do it.
It is not selfish to request more options for control over how you, personally, spend your own time.

- The premades do the former(we can't allow solos to avoid us because...!!! They should not have a way to avoid facing us! We demand that they continue to be put into matches they do not wish to participate in!).
- The solos do the latter (we just want to be left alone, go away premades, we want nothing to do with you, give us an option to fight each other instead)

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post

On a side note: I'd also like to note a player is not prevented from avoiding a Premade vs. PuG situation now. It's called "Leave Warzone" and it can be located by clicking the glowing icon down by your mini-map. I think we can do better, but please don't tell me PuG's have no options to avoid a "stomp."
This is also extremely selfish.

"If you do not wish to face my premade, you should not play at all!"

Why the heck would you care what the solos do if they aren't going to face your premade anyway?
What's so wrong with allowing them to face each other instead of just quitting?
Either way, they aren't going to play against you. So why tell them to quit? Just out of spite?

(all uses of 'you' above is meant generally, not personally)

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.02.2013 , 01:25 PM | #4119
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
To be honest, this is a very, very, very unrealistic ( and a bit selfish) statement. This isn't a jab at you.

Your "fun" in Player vs. Player is entirely at the mercy of other players, or your definition of "Fun." To enter into Player vs. Player, it is always a competition and your opponent always has control over how much of a challenge you face. Why? ...Because they are the one's who control how challenging they are. So no matter how "even," "fair," "etc..." the system is, there will always be players placed into matches they do not enjoy. The only true way for a player to enjoy all their matches is... for their attitude/view to change. (This of course, is asking too much of the standard Player).

I believe there are ways (matchmaking, getting better, changing attitude) to minimize the amount of control another player can have on you, but PvP by definition prohibits a player from having a lot of control over their experience. If players did have control over their opponents difficulty it would be called... PvE.



On a side note: I'd also like to note a player is not prevented from avoiding a Premade vs. PuG situation now. It's called "Leave Warzone" and it can be located by clicking the glowing icon down by your mini-map. I think we can do better, but please don't tell me PuG's have no options to avoid a "stomp." They have at least 1 (2 if you count grouping up/getting better)... they just don't like it. It doesn't favor them.
Sigh. The inevitable devolvement begins.


It's a very self-absorbed stance you've taken. What happened to being a reasonable voice here? You've made it personal, and in the process lost a bit of credibility.

You point out that casuals can just click "leave warzone" and all is well. This is not the case at all. It only furthers the issue at hand, which is the population at large has grown tired of premades in warzones. They don't like it, and they often quit (like you so eloquently suggested). The ones who remain in the match are then subject to the classic steamroll (especially since backfills are broken at the moment), and that only serves to fuel their hatred for your premade.

Why didn't you just tell them to stop playing the game? It would have the same effect. Less casuals in warzones will equal longer queue times and the overall death of PvP. I could have sworn you said solo-only options would do the same, and here you are suggesting that someone should just quit. It's a bit absurd.

Just because premades are the status quo does NOT mean the status quo is correct. Perhaps you might think of hitting the "leave warzone" if you don't believe that, or that a change is coming.
Mavërīck

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."

Vasagi's Avatar


Vasagi
07.02.2013 , 04:56 PM | #4120
Some good ideas here. It seems hypocritical some of the arguments against trying to fix WZs so that solo queue players are not forced into the premade farming that dominates right now.

-"It's not fair to exclude premade players from a solo bracket." It's also not fair to lock solo players out of ranked WZs, and yet here we are. How about we allow solo queue players into ranked? Then there would be more ranked games, and less premades in regular queue.

-"It will make premade queues too long." Nothing would prevent players from moving outside of their premade comfort zone and queueing solo if they didn't like the group queue times. This is the same argument you throw at solo queue players: "Nothing is stopping you from making your own premade." If you can tell me how to play, why I can't I return the favor?

I do think any solution would have to start with cross server WZs, because in reality the queues are long enough as it is, and on some servers there is not a large enough pvp pool to support separate queues at all.

...and one last idea- BW should focus on making pvp fun for EVERYONE, not just the hardcore players. If they did that, or even made an effort, maybe the pvp pool would grow instead of shrink, which would be good for everyone.