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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
11.05.2012 , 10:38 AM | #371
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
...pick up a book by Scott Olson Card, titled "Ender's Game." I think after you read it, it will be quite the eye-opener.
Quick correction, to help anyone who looks it up: Orson Scott Card. And yes, it's very good. Read it.
Hasa'diga Eewokai
Ilmarinen 60 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Pvtcarnage's Avatar


Pvtcarnage
11.05.2012 , 11:36 AM | #372
The OP title should read "casual" gamers are forcing others into groups and VoIP due to the casuals horrible sense of awareness, lack of communication, playing map as their own solo death match game made just for them, casuals thinking total DPS means something if you lose, farming defensive points from the get go.....I could keep going but I'm sure you can see why people would like to group up together and maybe even enjoy killing some of the above mentioned folks.

Just saying, it's why I do premade
"Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them.
-Darth Bane

UncelSam's Avatar


UncelSam
11.05.2012 , 11:46 AM | #373
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
I think most people that run premades who do not have enough guildies online for rateds would more than welcome separate queues if they would guarantee that times would not dramatically increase without cross server queues.

Anyways I still enjoy the fact that all people that pug are undergeard and always face a premade that is full WH min/maxed blah blah blah.
Id say its more down to if you got a battery of healers or not. Theres many PUG who got excellent equipment, but lack support from healers since the group is randomly put.

SammuelSK's Avatar


SammuelSK
11.05.2012 , 12:26 PM | #374
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
It's very simple Samuel.

I have not asked you to do anything more than I have done.

You are asking me to do twice what you have done.

If you can not see the inequallity, then I have nothing else to say to you.
You've yet to actually say anything to me. Infact you've pretty much deflected, redirected and flat out avoided any questions or points I've made. But that's neither here nor there.

Incidently, the game doesn't need a third queue to be added... it simply needs the existing ones to be fixed. As long as groups continue to be allowed into the non-rated warzones premades will continue to avoid the rated warzones. Be it lazyness, a fear of actual competition, or just choosing the shortest path to the PVP brass ring this current layout accomplishes nothing. The game already has a seperate queue, incidently with better rewards, for group PVP content. Why not use it?

Oh right...

Counterpoint 1: We shouldn't be forced to do more then pugs to succeed.
Yet you are asking exactly that of pug players, cutting through the crap the arguement from you is that unless they find a PVP guild, which runs premades, they should expect to lose every single time or close enough to not to matter. Not an ideal situation for retaining subscribers or anything beyond a ankle deep wading pool of PVPers. (Feel free to explain to me these mysterious extra steps that I'm somehow missing.)

Counterpoint 2: The game is designed for group content, you should group to succeed.
The game also has a group rated warzones, yet "group content" PVPers don't seem to want to actually take part in group content.

Counterpoint 3: It will ruin PVP!
No.. other games that have done this have not been ruined, but infact have seen a marked improvement overall. Infact this is a system that the majority of games use, FPS's, MMO's and even sport's games have seperate areas for "ranked" and "unranked" play. What they also give you is the opportunity to find a place that suits your playstyle, don't want to face the clan you just got dropped in on in BF3.. find a different room that more to your liking.

Counterpoint 4: Its their own fault, they joined up late so they should suck it up and get better gear.
Interesting, but in the end a counterproductive mindset. You want more people to PVP... not less. Less just leads to longer queues, and a smaller population overall. There is logic in the game needing a learning curve, but when facing a full premade its not a curve.. its a brick wall.

Counterpoint 5: We don't have enough people for full rateds!
This one is a bit of a headscratcher for me. On one hand, in alot of cases its patently untrue. When you face premades of two groups from the same guild... it tends to make it look like yes, you actually do have enough players. But for arguements sakes, lets say you are short. Simple solution, what do raiding guilds do? Recruit more, gear them up, take the licks and improve. I see the current state of affairs with farming pugs as little different from a raiding guild complaining that BT SM should give them all the best gear while being doable by a full 8man group. The challenge in both situations seems practically identical.

Counterpoint 6: (More of an undercurrent then anything flat out said) I'm hardcore, only hardcore players should succeed. Casuals suck, **** them and anything they want, it dumbs down the game.
Here's a couple things about that... first, they pay the bills like you, and outnumber you by quite a bit. Driving them away hurts you, Bioware and the game. Secondly, the game doesn't need to be dumbed down to accomodate them, given a reasonable barrier of entry alot of them are quite willing to learn the ropes.

Counterpoint 7: We won't have fun!
Ok.. I'll give you this one, if fun is farming new players with no threat to yourself.. then yes, you would no longer have fun.
Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller
We have very measurable statistics that tell us if people lose a certain number of Warzones in a row being stun locked by a team of Operatives, then that might be part of that, and they will be not as likely to re-subscribe.

idavies's Avatar


idavies
11.05.2012 , 02:31 PM | #375
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Here are some personal statistics over the past 3 days from solo pvp'ing on the Republic side of the Progenitor server. I used Recruit gear only at the start to see the incentive a new player will have. To see if he will keep playing pvp:

Played 38 matches over the course of 3 days:

Won: 4. Lost: 34.
Number of times queued against a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 23
Number of times queued with a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 2
Number of times lost against the Republic: 0
Number of times lost against the Empire: 34
Number of times won against the Republic: 4
Number of times won against the Empire: 0
Number of times grouped without a healer: 17
Number of times faced an enemy group without a healer: 1
Number of times faced an exceptional enemy group (4 or more players with War Hero title or above): 10
Number of times queued with an exceptional group (4 or more players with War Hero or above): 1
Number of times queued with an inadequate group (4 or more players in Recruit): 10
Number of deaths: stopped counting.

As you can see from this limited survery, queuing solo meant losing the overwhelming majority of the games (a ratio of 4-34), almost all of them against the Empire. I've been in 4 true PuGvsPuG matches and incidentally every single one of them was Rep vs Rep we won.

23 times ouf of 38 (all in Rep vs Imp) we faced three or more players from the same guild. On my team this happened twice but we lost those matches as well due to the fact that:

10 times out of 38 we had 4 or more people (!!!) in Recruit gear (myself included of course), whereas 10 out of 38 times we faced enemy groups where 4 or more people were sporting War Hero, Conqueror, Warlord etc. titles.

This was further compounded by the fact that 17 (!) out of 38 times our team did not have a healer. Only once was I in a match where I could not find an enemy healer to mark.

I did not exactly count how many times our group was utterly annihilated (0-6 huttball, 100-0% novare etc.) but there were a lot of instances where we could not hold a single node in Civil War. Coordination was ok, we always discussed tactics, 9 out of 10 times people called out inc but the general lack of healers AND the overall gear advantage enjoyed by the enemies AND the fact that 23 matches had 3 or 4 people from the same guild made sure that no amount of coordination would make a difference.

Look at the numbers and tell me why a new lvl50 would bother to play pvp again after this?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Facing premades more than half the time (23/38) was part of the reason we kept losing but not the only part. The drastic lack of healers wasn't helping either. And the fact that in almost every 3rd match or so we had 4 people in Recruit.

I haven't tried pvp as an Imperial yet. I'm curious to do some statistics when I hit 50 to see if it's easier to level up somewhat as an Imperial.

I've seen many opinions by many people (some say it's fine, the majority call for changes) but I think there is something very wrong with pvp if solo queuing means autoloss.
I could not agree more my friend. The last time I posted something like this I got so many people telling me I was crap and to learn the game and to stop complaining about the situation. But what you are saying is true. I always queue solo. I've got a balance sage at valour 52 with 3 pieces of battlemaster (the rest is recruit). Once I finished a wz second! Normally I am second from the bottom or even bottom. I've watched in horror sometimes as my Sage gets pulled to pieces in seconds, I can't fight back and once I've used my stun break I just get stunned anther two or three times for good measure. By then I'm dead. How the hell can you learn to play this game? I see a war hero equipped operative coming my way (or sneaking up on me usually) and before I even engage them I know it's over. I'm struggling to get three medals sometimes. I was going to stay with it telling myself that it would get better the longer and harder I tried but I'm not enjoying entering a pvp arena for the amusement of a premade in full WH gear. And my level 52 valour rating bears no reflection on my pvp ability. I'm at 52 by a win to lose ratio of 1:10. I've never completed the weekly pvp either and still regard myself as a rookie. I am very close to calling time on level 50pvp for good.
Uranium 55 Commado Lithium 55 Guardian
Promethium 55 Gunslinger Berylium 55 Sage
Rhodium 55 Sentinel Plutonium 55 Shadow

HuaRya's Avatar


HuaRya
11.05.2012 , 03:15 PM | #376
I agree 1000000000000000000% with this. Solution:

Group PVP - 2 or more grouped players
SOLO PVP - Randomly placed assortment of players NOT grouped

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
You've yet to actually say anything to me. Infact you've pretty much deflected, redirected and flat out avoided any questions or points I've made. But that's neither here nor there.

Incidently, the game doesn't need a third queue to be added... it simply needs the existing ones to be fixed. As long as groups continue to be allowed into the non-rated warzones premades will continue to avoid the rated warzones. Be it lazyness, a fear of actual competition, or just choosing the shortest path to the PVP brass ring this current layout accomplishes nothing. The game already has a seperate queue, incidently with better rewards, for group PVP content. Why not use it?

Oh right...

Counterpoint 1: We shouldn't be forced to do more then pugs to succeed.
Yet you are asking exactly that of pug players, cutting through the crap the arguement from you is that unless they find a PVP guild, which runs premades, they should expect to lose every single time or close enough to not to matter. Not an ideal situation for retaining subscribers or anything beyond a ankle deep wading pool of PVPers. (Feel free to explain to me these mysterious extra steps that I'm somehow missing.)

Counterpoint 2: The game is designed for group content, you should group to succeed.
The game also has a group rated warzones, yet "group content" PVPers don't seem to want to actually take part in group content.

Counterpoint 3: It will ruin PVP!
No.. other games that have done this have not been ruined, but infact have seen a marked improvement overall. Infact this is a system that the majority of games use, FPS's, MMO's and even sport's games have seperate areas for "ranked" and "unranked" play. What they also give you is the opportunity to find a place that suits your playstyle, don't want to face the clan you just got dropped in on in BF3.. find a different room that more to your liking.

Counterpoint 4: Its their own fault, they joined up late so they should suck it up and get better gear.
Interesting, but in the end a counterproductive mindset. You want more people to PVP... not less. Less just leads to longer queues, and a smaller population overall. There is logic in the game needing a learning curve, but when facing a full premade its not a curve.. its a brick wall.

Counterpoint 5: We don't have enough people for full rateds!
This one is a bit of a headscratcher for me. On one hand, in alot of cases its patently untrue. When you face premades of two groups from the same guild... it tends to make it look like yes, you actually do have enough players. But for arguements sakes, lets say you are short. Simple solution, what do raiding guilds do? Recruit more, gear them up, take the licks and improve. I see the current state of affairs with farming pugs as little different from a raiding guild complaining that BT SM should give them all the best gear while being doable by a full 8man group. The challenge in both situations seems practically identical.

Counterpoint 6: (More of an undercurrent then anything flat out said) I'm hardcore, only hardcore players should succeed. Casuals suck, **** them and anything they want, it dumbs down the game.
Here's a couple things about that... first, they pay the bills like you, and outnumber you by quite a bit. Driving them away hurts you, Bioware and the game. Secondly, the game doesn't need to be dumbed down to accomodate them, given a reasonable barrier of entry alot of them are quite willing to learn the ropes.

Counterpoint 7: We won't have fun!
Ok.. I'll give you this one, if fun is farming new players with no threat to yourself.. then yes, you would no longer have fun.

UGLYMRJ's Avatar


UGLYMRJ
11.05.2012 , 03:17 PM | #377
I hate when I'm enjoying a thread and the repetitive walls of text make me instantly lose interest.

Pvtcarnage's Avatar


Pvtcarnage
11.05.2012 , 03:47 PM | #378
Sorry but I just have to...

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
You've yet to actually say anything to me. Infact you've pretty much deflected, redirected and flat out avoided any questions or points I've made. But that's neither here nor there.

Incidently, the game doesn't need a third queue to be added... it simply needs the existing ones to be fixed. As long as groups continue to be allowed into the non-rated warzones premades will continue to avoid the rated warzones. Be it lazyness, a fear of actual competition, or just choosing the shortest path to the PVP brass ring this current layout accomplishes nothing. The game already has a seperate queue, incidently with better rewards, for group PVP content. Why not use it?

You act like we are not allowed and are somehow breaking a rule by queing in regular. Rated does not mean premades are only allowed to play there and not in regular, In fact if you could point out were this might be mentioned? Because how I understand it it's for people who want to play Ranked. I happen to like to play ranked and my guild try's almost every night with other guilds to do that, but alot of the time it's not worth it due to people coming and going and we could have earned just as many comms playing regular with out all the team balancing fuss and can still que if we are short. So it's not a matter of avoiding rated it's a matter of time not wasted setting up and making less comms for the trouble.

Oh right...

Counterpoint 1: We shouldn't be forced to do more then pugs to succeed.
Yet you are asking exactly that of pug players, cutting through the crap the arguement from you is that unless they find a PVP guild, which runs premades, they should expect to lose every single time or close enough to not to matter. Not an ideal situation for retaining subscribers or anything beyond a ankle deep wading pool of PVPers. (Feel free to explain to me these mysterious extra steps that I'm somehow missing.)

We are not making anyone do more work, they chose not to put effort in and seem to expect the same result of those that do, and if they don't get what they want then it's the people who put effort in fault. And gimme a break you act like every pug game is against a roflstomp team and they never win...Over exaggerate much? If someone cancels their sub due to getting butt hurt a few times was likely going anyways. Besides PvP has not slowed since launch on my server, but have seen many PvE guilds disappear.

Counterpoint 2: The game is designed for group content, you should group to succeed.
The game also has a group rated warzones, yet "group content" PVPers don't seem to want to actually take part in group content.

Hate to break it to you but regular warzones are "group content" too. And no one has to play ranked if they don't wish too and certainly not to just appease some anti social player who can't be bothered with making friends to play "group content" with.


Counterpoint 3: It will ruin PVP!
No.. other games that have done this have not been ruined, but infact have seen a marked improvement overall. Infact this is a system that the majority of games use, FPS's, MMO's and even sport's games have seperate areas for "ranked" and "unranked" play. What they also give you is the opportunity to find a place that suits your playstyle, don't want to face the clan you just got dropped in on in BF3.. find a different room that more to your liking.

You can't argue FPS games that have 10's of thousands of servers to choose from in your argument. And which mmo does not let people group up for regular play?

Counterpoint 4: Its their own fault, they joined up late so they should suck it up and get better gear.
Interesting, but in the end a counterproductive mindset. You want more people to PVP... not less. Less just leads to longer queues, and a smaller population overall. There is logic in the game needing a learning curve, but when facing a full premade its not a curve.. its a brick wall.

Again not every match is pug VS premade, that's just BS. and again ques from the start on my server rock around the clock...a lot people seem to like it.

Counterpoint 5: We don't have enough people for full rateds!
This one is a bit of a headscratcher for me. On one hand, in alot of cases its patently untrue. When you face premades of two groups from the same guild... it tends to make it look like yes, you actually do have enough players. But for arguements sakes, lets say you are short. Simple solution, what do raiding guilds do? Recruit more, gear them up, take the licks and improve. I see the current state of affairs with farming pugs as little different from a raiding guild complaining that BT SM should give them all the best gear while being doable by a full 8man group. The challenge in both situations seems practically identical.

So you see 8man premades some times and think that they are not in Ranked que because you just know these thing right? and again they don't have to play rank just like you don't have to get better or get a group of your own. This continual attacking of people(friends) that play together as the ultimate evil and road block to your fun is short sighted and self serving. BW made the game we just play it.......


Counterpoint 6: (More of an undercurrent then anything flat out said) I'm hardcore, only hardcore players should succeed. Casuals suck, **** them and anything they want, it dumbs down the game.
Here's a couple things about that... first, they pay the bills like you, and outnumber you by quite a bit. Driving them away hurts you, Bioware and the game. Secondly, the game doesn't need to be dumbed down to accomodate them, given a reasonable barrier of entry alot of them are quite willing to learn the ropes.

Yea we all pay the bills, if you don't like it show with your wallet. SWTOR has issues but the PvP is fun and I don't see the gloom you forecast.

Counterpoint 7: We won't have fun!
Ok.. I'll give you this one, if fun is farming new players with no threat to yourself.. then yes, you would no longer have fun.
Ok, I see so the people who ARE currently having fun should somehow gimp themselves of thier fun so you can have a little fun with no effort? Sounds to much like welfare to me.
"Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them.
-Darth Bane

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.05.2012 , 05:31 PM | #379
Quote: Originally Posted by Veniras View Post
A THIRD queue for solo-players can only BENEFIT the POOL of PVP players.

Currently you have new 50'es who join a WZ, get smashed by a premade, never to return to PVP again due to a REALLY BAD experience that was NO FUN.

By a solo-only queue you get ppl who still enjoy PVP, and ALSO can join the premade queue as they decide to run their own premades later on.

CURRENT SYSTEM DISCOURAGES NEW PLAYERS FROM JOINING!

(I REALLY wish the devs would come with a statement on the issue)
Evidence of this besides your own personal experience? Or let's face it, you really have no proof that new players face 1 premade, get smashed, and quit.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Quick correction, to help anyone who looks it up: Orson Scott Card. And yes, it's very good. Read it.
<.< oh my, this is embarassing. Thanks for catching that.

Quote: Originally Posted by UncelSam View Post
The only reason premade runners constantly object us PUGs from getting a PVP queue for ourselves is that they are afraid of losing thier fun of easy kills. We PUGs who are tired of being cannonfodder for overpowered Premade runners just want our part of fun with getting balanced fights.

If you premade runners are fancying a tough fights, you should be glad if we PUGs were in our own queue, since you should have to fight other Premade team, but instead you are all whining in here, objecting that we should get our own queue. That fact speaks for itself.

I rest my case.
First, look up Logical Fallacies. It's called "No true Scotsman"

That being said, may I ask why the blame lies with players playing with their friends, coordinating, and using availabe tools, rather than the people whom are not doing so? If you wish to not be easy kills, the best answer to me would be.... STOP BEING EASY KILLS.

If a player/team is better than you/your team, you/your team need to get better. Now if you get better, and find your still losing to WH's when you're BM, your beef should be with the gear gap.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.05.2012 , 06:20 PM | #380
Part of me wonders why I bother replying.

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 1: We shouldn't be forced to do more then pugs to succeed.
Yet you are asking exactly that of pug players, cutting through the crap the arguement from you is that unless they find a PVP guild, which runs premades, they should expect to lose every single time or close enough to not to matter. Not an ideal situation for retaining subscribers or anything beyond a ankle deep wading pool of PVPers. (Feel free to explain to me these mysterious extra steps that I'm somehow missing.)
I've asked pugs to find 3 more people and/or join a guild. I haven't even said anything about Voice chat, but that couldn't hurt. This is nothing MORE than I have done myself.

You ask me to find 7 more people, and/or join a guild. If there isn't another 8 people in queue for ranked, you have then either decied "Tough for you" or that I should find 8 (total 16) more people.

Now, as you obviously have at least a highschool education (You appear able to read and write well enough) please do some math for me.

I have asked you to find 3 people.
You have asked me to find 7 and/or 15 people.

Which is the greater number?

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 2: The game is designed for group content, you should group to succeed.
The game also has a group rated warzones, yet "group content" PVPers don't seem to want to actually take part in group content.
Ranked takes 8 (and as we've discussed, sometimes 16). PvE takes 4, 8, or 16. When you can't do an 16 man op, you do an 8. When you can't do an 8 man op, you do a 4 man flashpoint.

I don't see the difference between a pvp group lacking the 8 (or 16) need choosing to do a 4 man piece of content.

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 3: It will ruin PVP!
No.. other games that have done this have not been ruined, but infact have seen a marked improvement overall. Infact this is a system that the majority of games use, FPS's, MMO's and even sport's games have seperate areas for "ranked" and "unranked" play. What they also give you is the opportunity to find a place that suits your playstyle, don't want to face the clan you just got dropped in on in BF3.. find a different room that more to your liking.
I don't believe I said it will ruin PvP. There is the objection of longer queue times all around, and a moral objection to discouraging team play/building by creating an easier, PuG only bracket. Neither one of these is a dramatic "Itz will ruin da' PvP Q.Q!!!!!"

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 4: Its their own fault, they joined up late so they should suck it up and get better gear.
Interesting, but in the end a counterproductive mindset. You want more people to PVP... not less. Less just leads to longer queues, and a smaller population overall. There is logic in the game needing a learning curve, but when facing a full premade its not a curve.. its a brick wall.
If you've listened to me at all, I think the gear gap is stupid, and I do not believe different tiered gear belongs in PvP. That is a different topic however.

I have encouraged the self-proclaimed "easy kills" to do as others have done, and stop being easy kills. As a realist, this means accepting that gear is a factor, and obtaining it as best and quickly as possible. On a side note, one can still Lose their way into gear.

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 5: We don't have enough people for full rateds!
This one is a bit of a headscratcher for me. On one hand, in alot of cases its patently untrue. When you face premades of two groups from the same guild... it tends to make it look like yes, you actually do have enough players. But for arguements sakes, lets say you are short. Simple solution, what do raiding guilds do? Recruit more, gear them up, take the licks and improve. I see the current state of affairs with farming pugs as little different from a raiding guild complaining that BT SM should give them all the best gear while being doable by a full 8man group. The challenge in both situations seems practically identical.
Last time I say a Double premade on my server (4 weeks ago it seems) I asked/invited them to do ranked with us. Perhaps they didn't hear me over all the fighting, be no ranked matches popped after we wait 10 minutes or so. Since then we've tried for ranked atleast a dozen nights and never a pop. Maybe that means something else to you, but after waiting 20-30 minutes (enough for a double premade to get out of a normal and requeue ranked/normal) we're not going to just sit out from PvP as to not hurt someone's poor wittle feewings...

Again it comes down to an issue of you asking me to do more than I have asked you.

Your analogy is laughable,, since a non-ranked Wz is 15 minutes and 140 comms (Less than 50 ranked btw..). You can do 2 of them in the time you can do an HM BT. The day you can gain a full piece of WH in the same time you can run a BT, then you can make such an outrageous claim.

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 6: (More of an undercurrent then anything flat out said) I'm hardcore, only hardcore players should succeed. Casuals suck, **** them and anything they want, it dumbs down the game.
Here's a couple things about that... first, they pay the bills like you, and outnumber you by quite a bit. Driving them away hurts you, Bioware and the game. Secondly, the game doesn't need to be dumbed down to accomodate them, given a reasonable barrier of entry alot of them are quite willing to learn the ropes.
I am not a Hardcore, I am simple not a scrub (or not as much as I use to be.) Before you become offended at being called a scrub, please go read "Playing to Win" by Sirlin. It's not as much a statement against your skill, as it is a description of your mentality.

Secondly, if by succeed you mean winning, then I think we all agree the better players should succeed? If by success you mean progress through the gear grind, then I've already stated I think the gear grind is stupid... it's simply a reality.

As for your final point lemme ask you this: If there are more tax-paying anti-gay people, then government shouldn't allow gay marriage? Majority rule, Minority rights.

Quote: Originally Posted by SammuelSK View Post
Counterpoint 7: We won't have fun!
Ok.. I'll give you this one, if fun is farming new players with no threat to yourself.. then yes, you would no longer have fun.
I never said we won't have fun. Again, there is a concern for queue times and a moral disagreement about removing team play/building from team pvp.


Now that I've addressed these points, would you be so kind as to answer (or re-answer if I simply missed it) my question?

Why is it so hard to find 3 more players?