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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

sanchito's Avatar


sanchito
06.21.2013 , 10:47 AM | #3691
can you like stop quoting the morons pls? it's defeating the purpose of my ignore list...

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
06.21.2013 , 10:55 AM | #3692
Quote: Originally Posted by sanchito View Post
can you like stop quoting the morons pls? it's defeating the purpose of my ignore list...
Sorry, sometimes they just say something so... da***? That they manage to elicit a response from me.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
06.21.2013 , 11:21 AM | #3693
This is what ruins warzones btw:

Playing Hypergate, teams are about tied. I'm queue'd as solo.

After a death, I opt to respawn and head for their node. It appears unguarded, which means there's at least a stealthed guard. No other option I break stealth and try for the node.

Instead of CC'ing and calling for help, the Shadow attacks me. We enter a duel over the node and it's pretty close, but I can tell the shadow's got the advantage on me. They're (the player) just better at 1 vs 1. The fight has dragged on a good 20-30 seconds and just as I'm about die, one of my team mates shows up and nukes the shadow's last 20%.

We steal the node.

In that time, the shadow either didn't call Inc, or their team didn't respond. Mr. Shadow was prolly a PvP hero (since they didn't CC me and call) and although they feel they were "skilled" they lacked the most important skill in PvP: Team work.

Moral of the Story. No matter how skilled you think you are, you're nothing without a team.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

Zojak's Avatar


Zojak
06.21.2013 , 11:33 AM | #3694
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
[...] 'hey I just met you and this is crazy, but I have 3 inc snow, so come help maybe' [...]
I laughed far more than I probably should have at this. Thank you for that.
"The body is but a vessel for the soul, a puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny. And lo, the body is not eternal, for it must feed on the flesh of others, lest it return to the dust from whence it came. Therefore must the soul deceive, despise and murder men." A.J.Durai

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
06.21.2013 , 11:42 AM | #3695
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
first off, gear is available to everyone. if you prepare for PvP while leveling you can get almost 50% of your partisan gear right off the bat.

and what does that have *anything* to do with what i just posted? i am not, havent anywhere in this thread denied that those advantages exist for premade groups. but guess what? they are available to everyone...... so form your own group if you think its so unfair..

It has to do with what you said because the entire match making argument premises that your win rate has anything to do with your skill. I said you're substituting the benefits of group play and calling it your own level of talent.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
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cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
06.21.2013 , 12:13 PM | #3696
Quote: Originally Posted by Comfterbilly View Post
It has to do with what you said because the entire match making argument premises that your win rate has anything to do with your skill. I said you're substituting the benefits of group play and calling it your own level of talent.
thats actually not what im saying at all..... win rate would be a terrible way to structure matchmaking in regs because 1 bad player can potentially lose the game for 7 good ones.

i wrote a quick and not-so-elegant matchmaking algorithm a while back, that rates you on your personal performance in the warzone. so even if you lost, you could technically still have a chance to increase your rating. so you *would* be rated solely on your individual skill level, and that rating would be used to match you against players with similar skill levels.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=593335


and for some it reason it seems that you, and others in this thread, believe that if you strip away a players voip, their group, possibly their gear, and whatever else you consider to be an advantage that premades have over pugs, that they would suddenly be on even or fair terms with everyone else. that is simply an incorrect assumption.

there are wildly varying skill levels in this game. and skill has a much greater impact than any of the advantages that you can imagine.

you can give a player voip, a very good group comp, fully min/maxd conq gear, but if that person doesnt understand the fundamentals of their class, how to maximize their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses, or how to properly accomplish warzone objectives, they will lose to players with higher skill levels (whether those players pug'd or were their own premade).

its shocking the number of players that dont understand the basics of this game.
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Zojak's Avatar


Zojak
06.21.2013 , 01:01 PM | #3697
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
This is what ruins warzones btw:

Playing Hypergate, teams are about tied. I'm queue'd as solo.

After a death, I opt to respawn and head for their node. It appears unguarded, which means there's at least a stealthed guard. No other option I break stealth and try for the node.

Instead of CC'ing and calling for help, the Shadow attacks me. We enter a duel over the node and it's pretty close, but I can tell the shadow's got the advantage on me. They're (the player) just better at 1 vs 1. The fight has dragged on a good 20-30 seconds and just as I'm about die, one of my team mates shows up and nukes the shadow's last 20%.

We steal the node.

In that time, the shadow either didn't call Inc, or their team didn't respond. Mr. Shadow was prolly a PvP hero (since they didn't CC me and call) and although they feel they were "skilled" they lacked the most important skill in PvP: Team work.

Moral of the Story. No matter how skilled you think you are, you're nothing without a team.
You know, I have read several of your posts and you really seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I like how you explain your point of view through experience and logic, and that goes a long way to getting your point across.

I agree with what you're saying. Working together as a team is ideal. And that Shadow you faught was probably a good duelist and thought he had the situation under control, and probably would've perpetuated that ideology had your team mate not come by to obliterate him.

But let's say Padawan Johnny McNewbPants joins a warzone because he liked playing BGs in WoW and so here he is. He's not stupid, but he also doesn't understand SWTOR's unqiue experience. The fundamentals are the same, but he doesn't know anyone.

Our young padawan joins the group and it has no healers, and the people seem genuinely closed off. No one responds to his "Hi" .. no one really bothers to come up with a plan. So the match starts and he begins to explore the match himself, hoping to be an asset, hoping to enjoy some PVP in SWTOR ...

When suddenly he is nuked by a premade team of players who have their victory planned before they even queued.

Padawan McNewbPants is discouraged, utterly. The sheer magnitude of his defeat - the absolution and definition he was smited with is so cognitive - so utter - that he now feels hopelessly inadequate.

And what about that premade team? They went into a Warzone and dominated it with cold efficency. And now they're out of the warzone. Maybe they had fun. But eventually they will long for a the true challenge of a good pvp fight. I absolutely love games where it's close. Even if I lost, I would shake every single one of the opposing team's hands because we had a good game. It wasn't dominated by one side, that ultimately stops being fun for everyone.



But in an alternate reality where Padawan McNewbPants joined a match-made group with proportionate roles and experience (possibly from valor? I don't know) and now he see's how his team can strive. If he's smart, he'll see that the healers need protecting and in exchange, heal him.

I really agree with some of the other posts here too in terms of intelligence. A premade group of idiots is still a group of idiots. A random group of intelligent people who think and work well with others is probably going to be successful against their opposition.

I think at the end of the match, you see the winners as the group of more skilled and more intelligent people, as a whole. Exceptions apply, but that's ultimately what I believe.

Edit: So as to touch on your final point about skill, I think skill has its place in any fight. A team of cattle, grazing across the Warzone will be defeated by the fewer, more intelligent group trying to complete objectives.

If a team is full of intelligent people, but those intelligent people aren't very good at the game (somehow, that seems unlikely to me.. if they're intelligent they will learn quickly) - if they storm mid but can't hold their own in a fight, their team of 8 will lose to the opposing team of 6. Opposing team will capture mid and take grass or snow, and the skill-less team will be left riding speeders back to their doom.

Just my opinion.
"The body is but a vessel for the soul, a puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny. And lo, the body is not eternal, for it must feed on the flesh of others, lest it return to the dust from whence it came. Therefore must the soul deceive, despise and murder men." A.J.Durai

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
06.21.2013 , 01:27 PM | #3698
Quote: Originally Posted by Zojak View Post
I laughed far more than I probably should have at this. Thank you for that.
I would love to take credit for that, but I didn't think of it, and I can't remember who, so didn't do 'quote'.
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
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to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
06.21.2013 , 01:56 PM | #3699
Quote: Originally Posted by Zojak View Post
You know, I have read several of your posts and you really seem to have a good head on your shoulders. I like how you explain your point of view through experience and logic, and that goes a long way to getting your point across.

I agree with what you're saying. Working together as a team is ideal. And that Shadow you faught was probably a good duelist and thought he had the situation under control, and probably would've perpetuated that ideology had your team mate not come by to obliterate him.

But let's say Padawan Johnny McNewbPants joins a warzone... *snip*
Considering the post you quoted, I'm not sure exactly sure what is in response to what but I myself believe that:

1.) Higher skilled players vs. Lower skilled players is/can cause a problem in game population. Whether right or wrong, no one likes to lose and most/many blame their enemies. Be that as it may, as is the current regular warzone situation isn't healthy (though I feel many greatly over state it's current level/effects).

2.) Any solution must benefit the largest amount of players and the largest diversity of "player types."

3.) To that extent, I do feel the best solution is some kind of matchmaking on some criteria. If others want to argue it's based on queue-type (ie, matchmaker will try to match group to group, pug to pug), skill level, valor, win rates, etc... that's up to them, I'm not sure the best criteria.

4.) My final point is that players must also take it upon themselves to get better. I do feel MMO's (and society to a degree) have done a lot to strip away player responsibility and cater to as many people as they can. Unfortunately, this gives rise to popular divisions of content and makes many players feel they should only have to do X and still stand toe to toe with players who do X, Y, and Z.


It seems at least in point 1, 2, and 3 you are in agreement, but I'll wait for confirmation.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
06.21.2013 , 04:34 PM | #3700
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
Coordination - it's all about brain, I've seen full pug groups outcoordinating 2 pre mades and winning by far...
if all 8 pugs have brain, they will use their class to their advantage for group, not for their epeen.

gear - not an issue anymore

composition - well, yeah, here is one point for premade , some classes combined can give nice results, but I've beein in games won with 5 healers, and won with no healing at all.
Won a game full of sins+sorcs against smashers...

Biggest advantage of premade is less stupid in their team...
It's not about classes any more, it's quite balanced rock-paper-scizzors-lizzard-spock (how are merc/commandos now?), it's not about gear, not about coordination (after 1,5 year most peopel should already know what to do in each warzone and if they don't , there are plenty of guides).
it's all about who's got less stupid in their team = win.

Strong premades lost cause their node guardian was stupid.

you can't ban for being stupid (otherwise I would be banned ages ago )
I agree with most of this except the gear is not an issue part.

Gear will always be an issue and now, thanks to bolster, it is more convoluted than ever about what is needed to be competitive in PvP.