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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
06.02.2013 , 09:08 AM | #2721
Quote: Originally Posted by MidichIorian View Post
Your solution is based on the assumption that all premades are equal. They're not. There are a couple of guild premades on my server that I will quit on every time because even against a crappy full-pug chances are slim that we'll win. It's the type of premade with an average player skill so low that you wouldnt be able to make up for it with the four best players on the server. On top of this they're vastly overestimating their abilties and they never look at the roster so they will split up in three every time and let the sage and commando get steamrolled in mid while they're failing at killing one guy at the off-node.

Hence, the only solution is to implement player ratings and since premades rarely to never consist of a mix of players from the skill spectrum it would be enough that the premades were given the same rating as the person with the highest individual rating in the premade. This wouldnt be a definite solution but it would decrease the risk of a team of good players going up against people who always end up last on the board and never win. The matchmaking system would increase the search to a wider rating span every minute to assure that people wouldnt get stuck in queue forever.

And, people, enough with the "form your own" premade argument. People are complaining about the good premades and since far from everyone in this game is good it's not reasonable to believe that average players will become significally better and on par just because they group up. Hell, the best thing they can do is to not form a premade and take their chances with pugs instead.
No, no, no, no, no, no. Whatever a premade's skill level - that is the premade's problem. The solution is not for us to be stuck with them. Good, bad or terribad, premade problems are premade problems. Us solo players might feel sympathy, but it's hard to see the point, having had to accomodate them since launch. After rereading your post though, just wanted to say sorry - not intending to be hostile! Lol.

MotorCityMan's sorting idea is a good one, but like foxmob said,

Quote:
regardless of whether anyone adheres to the beliefs stated in the rest of your post, I think everyone would find this matchmaking fix legitimate. I doubt that BW has command of their own code to implement it.
I mean it's like two years and we still have problems with simple things like static over the audio channel, so no thank you to matchmaking on this game engine.

Either way, matchmaking is just another fake solution (like ranked). The real problem is they want to "win all the time", instead of test themselves out. Ranked would be full, if they were really interested in skill.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
06.02.2013 , 09:18 AM | #2722
Solos want an honest game. If you're a solo player and you're good, you queue solo thinking you don't care if you win or lose as long as you can get lost in the ferocity and bring your game to a new level - as a team but independently; strangers thrown into a match, maybe know nothing about each other's play styles in the beginning but pushing for that "aha" moment when there's an intuitive connection between players - at that point, the warzone becomes something kind of beautiful; you might even start getting something good out of the bads, when there's a point, when it's worth it.

What I notice is these pugstomping 4-mans are really disrupting the experience for a lot, lot of people. A lot of new players who signed up for the first time then quit in disgust, but if they had a place to develop, might be better than a lot of us by now. Instead, solo queue is almost broken with premades in it, to the point that the only people who can enjoy the game are the gimmick spammers.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***

SajPl's Avatar


SajPl
06.02.2013 , 11:35 AM | #2723
If the premade "problem" is as bad as you people are making it to be ... you people do understand if there is a premade in EVERY WARZONE THEN PREMADES ARE 50% of the pvp playerbase. SO STOP THE QQ because you puggers are NOT the majority.

Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
06.02.2013 , 01:03 PM | #2724
Look, I realize there are plenty of good reasons to queue solo. You aren't going to be online long enough to bother finding a group, you are doing chores between rounds and neither wish to stop doing them nor hold up your teammates while they wait for you to be ready to queue, the good people you actually want to queue with don't feel the same about you, or perhaps you just aren't in a social mood and want to be solo. Perhaps you can't afford a voice server, and neither can any of your friends, and you don't want to use Skype because it's too much trouble to download, and without voice, you see premading as pointless. Maybe you don't have a microphone, or, for that matter, headphones, and you don't want to use external speakers because that would bother your family. Maybe your friend bought a Mumble server, but you just don't feel like downloading the client... just because you're lazy. Maybe you do have your own Mumble server, but aren't in the mood to spend an hour finding a full team willing to download the client and would rather just queue already.

I frequently queue solo for some of these reasons myself. But the thing is, that's my choice, and I have to take responsibility for my choices. If, for whatever reason, I don't feel like making or being part of a premade, I have to accept the consequences. I will not be able to coordinate over voicechat. I may wind up being the only healer, with 7 people who all insist they are damage and not tanks, and die 15 times in a match as the other team focus fires me every time I get out of the rez. The people I am grouped with may go node-AFK but pretend to guard. Or just not manage to type out incoming until after they are dead. The team on the other side, on the other hand, may be well-balanced with two healers, both guarded, and a good target caller on voice so when someone gets attacked, they're getting attacked by 4 or 5 damage and tanks, who are incidentally also chaining their stuns together for maximum efficiency. Had I not been too lazy or otherwise disinterested in getting a premade together and talking them into downloading Mumble, I could've avoided such situations (well, not the other team's strengths, but at least my own team's weaknesses), but, as I did not choose to do so, I have to accept the consequences. Not limit other people's choices to make up for my own laziness. That would be like saying interrupts should be removed from the game, or at least disabled in unranked warzones, just because I can't be bothered to use activation-free heals or good positioning or interrupt immunity talents to deal with it.

It's not as if people don't have the option to make premades and get on voice if they so desire. Mumble servers cost what? $1.89/month for a 10-slot server (enough for a full ranked team) from Mumbleboxes.com? And Skype is free. There are even some free Mumble servers out there, perhaps lower quality, but still free. Also free to run it on your own computer. C3 is free too. You don't have to pay Ventrilo prices to have voicechat. Headset with microphone, that's what, $5 one-time fee? Sometimes free if you can get a used one no one wants anymore. Seriously, people are paying a lot more just to subscribe to the game. Don't want people to know you're a woman? Don't talk, just listen. For that matter, I heard someone using a voice-changer on Mumble the other day. They sounded like a cartoon character. If people aren't forming premades and getting on voice, it's not because there aren't perfectly affordable, in some cases free, options out there -- it's because they're too lazy, not feeling sociable, or perhaps just not planning on PvPing long enough to get serious about doing it effectively.

Arunas's Avatar


Arunas
06.02.2013 , 01:11 PM | #2725
Damn, these threads don't end, do they.

People that complain about premades are barking at the wrong tree. The real issue is that the game has no matchmaking and cross-server therefore there is very huge disparity of skill and it results in a lot of one-sided matches in regular warzones which are determined by which team has better and more of good players and compositions.

Premades help with the second by usually ensuring that the team has at least one healer and usually a tank, and lack of a healer vs a team that has one is huge difference now in 2.0.

The issue when facing a good premade is not that they have voice coms (most good players do not need to communicate as they have good game sense and know what to do at any given moment anyway) is that they might have 4 good players and you team don't and the only issue is if YOU contribute to your team to the good player portion or the bad player portion.

Most people that complain about premades are actually complaining about facing better players while they themselves do not want to improve and remain bad. They will never join a group themselves because nobody wants to have them in the team anyway.

I myself pug 50% of the time and I usually leave at the start of the warzone if I see that we get only bad players in the team. I play the game since beta and I do not have patience anymore to bust my *** off when you have people that cannot dps or heal or don't seem to have any brains at all and my personal pet peeve players in tank stance that don't guard anybody. Especially republic seems to have a lot of soresu guardians, shockingly there are a lot of people that fail at smashing so they use tank stance to pretend do be useful.

Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
06.02.2013 , 01:19 PM | #2726
Quote: Originally Posted by Dawncatcher View Post
I could've avoided such situations (well, not the other team's strengths, but at least my own team's weaknesses), but, as I did not choose to do so, I have to accept the consequences. Not limit other people's choices to make up for my own laziness. That would be like saying interrupts should be removed from the game, or at least disabled in unranked warzones, just because I can't be bothered to use activation-free heals or good positioning or interrupt immunity talents to deal with it.
This ^ is no logic at all. Between pugs and premades, premades are the only ones with a choice at all: ranked, or reg. Basically, premades get two queues, theirs and they want ours too. The issue is perhaps BW did not anticipate the need. Maybe the devs were naive enough to believe premades when they said "ranked" was what they want and as soon as they get it they will stay out of the solo ques. Since launch, solos have been demanding our own queue. During all that time premades are constantly saying, "you don't need your own queue, we just need ... ranked; we just need cross server... we just need matchmaking.

Well its BS. Give them matchmaking and they're going to hate getting rolled compared to pugfarming. Give them cross server and they'll hate getting rolled by other premades who are better than them. Give them ranked, and they hate getting rolled by premades who are better than them. For people who only care about "winning", what they really want is a fake contest, and the only thing they can't do without is free sanctioned pug farming by the devs. It's the one constant.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***

Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
06.02.2013 , 01:28 PM | #2727
Quote: Originally Posted by Arunas View Post
The issue when facing a good premade is not that they have voice coms (most good players do not need to communicate as they have good game sense and know what to do at any given moment anyway)
This is false, except in so far as *having* voice communications is not the same as *utilizing* them for maximum effectiveness. If they're just using voice communications to socialize or give useless calls for help because *Oh no! I don't want to die. Not because I couldn't come right out of the rez since there's no wait during offensive voicestar, but because I just don't like dying!" then yeah, voice doesn't help much.

But if they are using it, well, first, an obvious example, solo node defender is jumped at by 2 or 3 stealthers. Without voice, if solo node defender stops to type for help, they aren't using their cooldowns while typing, and die about the same time they finish typing. If they don't stop to type for help, they do use their cooldowns, and, while they do manage to live long enough for help to theoretically arrive, it never does unless someone who knew they were there notices their health dropping and comes running even though they didn't call (or just guesses from the number of opponents that some must've gone elsewhere). If the defender is on voice, they just call over voice at the same time as they are blowing their cooldowns / doing everything they can to live as long as possible, a scoundrel/operative hears them and speed-rolls over there, arriving just as they are about to die but in time to hold the node long enough for more help to arrive.

Or focus fire. Sorry, but marking targets and manually typing that people should attack them, even if people actually follow instructions, is nowhere near as efficient as calling them out over voice. For starters, what if more than one target is market? Non-voicers usually just split between them, and, even supposing they manage to kill them all, have no idea who to attack next and just go back to being disorganized at that point. Even if you say "attack target symbol first and then shield symbol", most people will just attack whichever one they see first (if they're listening to you at all -- and, let's face it, most don't). Voicers who have a good target caller and listen to that person proceed one after the other in quick succession until there are no more potential targets to kill. If you have 5 people all attacking a single target at the same time, and all moving together to a second target, and then a third, etc., that's voice. If a Voicer can't find the target, they can ask, and hear in response "Oh, yes, he's on the staircase to your left"; a non-voicer will just go attack some target they can find.

Dawncatcher's Avatar


Dawncatcher
06.02.2013 , 01:35 PM | #2728
Quote: Originally Posted by Comfterbilly View Post
This ^ is no logic at all. Between pugs and premades, premades are the only ones with a choice at all: ranked, or reg. Basically, premades get two queues, theirs and they want ours too. .
Did you even read my post? Yes, you do have a choice. You can make a premade, or you can solo. That's a choice. You aren't forced to solo and not use voice. You choose to solo and not use voice. If you are too lazy or unsociable or otherwise insufficiently serious to bother getting a premade together and getting them on voice, you do not deserve any more accommodations than if I'm too lazy to bother using activation-free skills (or good positioning or interrupt immunity) when someone is spamming interrupts at me.

Also, premades can only get in ranked if they have a full team of 8. 7 or less and they have to wait until they can recruit more people or just queue regular. (Plus, for more than 4, it's technically two groups queuing... but to get around that, some only accept a pop if both groups of the ops get a pop simultaneously.)

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
06.02.2013 , 01:41 PM | #2729
I'm wonder, how premaders so dumb what still cannot understand one simply thing: what solo players DO NOT WANT PLAY WITH THEM?

Its simply dudes from premades: solo players dont want play with you.

They dont want.

Play.

With you.

Solo playes want play only with/versus solo players. Thats all.
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Comfterbilly's Avatar


Comfterbilly
06.02.2013 , 01:42 PM | #2730
Quote: Originally Posted by Dawncatcher View Post
Did you even read my post? Yes, you do have a choice. You can make a premade, or you can solo. That's a choice. You aren't forced to solo and not use voice. You choose to solo and not use voice. If you are too lazy or unsociable or otherwise insufficiently serious to bother getting a premade together and getting them on voice, you do not deserve any more accommodations than if I'm too lazy to bother using activation-free skills (or good positioning or interrupt immunity) when someone is spamming interrupts at me.

Also, premades can only get in ranked if they have a full team of 8. 7 or less and they have to wait until they can recruit more people or just queue regular. (Plus, for more than 4, it's technically two groups queuing... but to get around that, some only accept a pop if both groups of the ops get a pop simultaneously.)
A choice is not having premades in our queue. Casual premies are fine. If they want a place to practice without 8 players that's their problem; if they want a place to practice without losing standing that's their problem. Not saying BW shouldn't fix it, just saying that is their problem with BW for BW to do something with them but whatever their issue is, our issue is them: the premades.

If your premades are not the ones taking advantage of this queue disparity, blame them, not the solo players. They're ruining it for everybody and no one can say there aren't a lot of groups taking advantage of a near-broken system.
A man is only as strong as the computer he plays Huttball on...

***Sign the Solo-Only que for Warzone PVP.***
***Pug Vs. Premade: Vicious Verbal Jousting.***