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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

TridusSWTOR's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 12:58 PM | #211
Quote: Originally Posted by UGLYMRJ View Post
Ranked queues went down on my server because people submitted to the top tier guilds instead of trying to achieve the same level of game play. A lack of a truly competitive community.
Yea keep telling yourself that.

The truth is, ranked pvp is slow because for a lot of people it is a turn off for new people getting into PVP. Why would you stick around when you will probably face a premade and get stomped?

Get better or leave, is usually the solution provided by the short-sighted individuals which will eventually make pvp in this game a wasteland.

UGLYMRJ's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 01:14 PM | #212
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Yea keep telling yourself that.

The truth is, ranked pvp is slow because for a lot of people it is a turn off for new people getting into PVP. Why would you stick around when you will probably face a premade and get stomped?

Get better or leave, is usually the solution provided by the short-sighted individuals which will eventually make pvp in this game a wasteland.
My solution is to improve....

Yours is to complain and demand changes that would completely go against the base design of this game.

Have logic you do not... (In a horrible Yoda impression)

TridusSWTOR's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 02:07 PM | #213
Quote: Originally Posted by UGLYMRJ View Post
My solution is to improve....

Yours is to complain and demand changes that would completely go against the base design of this game.

Have logic you do not... (In a horrible Yoda impression)
Improve by telling players to leave the game if they don't agree with you? Because that is what you are suggesting.

That's working well with 3 ranked matches a day.

UGLYMRJ's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 02:10 PM | #214
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Improve by telling players to leave the game if they don't agree with you? Because that is what you are suggesting.

That's working well with 3 ranked matches a day.
I'm telling players to explore their options if they don't enjoy the current state of this game instead of expecting the game to cater to them.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 04:52 PM | #215
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
Not if you would otherwise lose every match it wouldn't.

Long story short, instead of reporting this for moderation, as is, for whatever reason, usually done on this forum, I'll engage you one final time to tell you you are all over the place.
Veiled threats of reporting, scary.

Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
The reason I began speaking to you at all is due to your ludicrous claim that some other guy, who was not sending a geared ranked team into the pug bracket, was a friendless loser who was playing wrong. That's something you said. I didn't bring that idea into this thread. It was you.

You tried to say you would q ranked if not for a glitch nobody seems to have reported. Whether this is true or not (and this doesn't compute in my "thick skull" for reasons I'll get to a minute) this is an admission that you know full well that you, not the other guy, are in the wrong bracket with the wrong type of squad. Even if you want to tell me it's your fault due to "glitches," it's STILL an admission that you're in the wrong bracket with the wrong type of squad. So what was the first post about, then?
An admission of wanting to do ranked is not the same as "admitting I'm in the wrong bracket." Logical fallacy, as they are two different activities.

Ranked gives ranked comms, but affects rating. Regular, gives normal comms, no rating. I can want to do ranked (quickening my remaining gear grind if it pops), or I can decide to do normal (continue working on my remaining gear at normal pace). No where does it say I must do ranked if my Gear is (whatever.)

Nice try.

Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
So in 2 posts, you already abandoned this narcissistic idea that you're saving the game by rolling pugs with ranked teams and the other guy's playing wrong by not doing that. Now you're saying you know it's not what you're supposed to be doing, but it's not your fault.
Never said I was "saving the game" by insisting BW keep team play the focus of the team based pvp they created. I did however, inform people they should seek to raise themselves rather than demand other people suck more so they can win more.

Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
Well, apart from acknowledging that you've argued two conflicting things, I don't believe your most-recent post, either, because, between mouth-foaming keyboard-bashes, you can't even get your story straight. You said you filled in a second ranked team with friends/randoms. Now it's 8 unknown bads.
Once again, I'm not surprised by your inability to read properly. I never stated they were 8 bads. However, friend or not, they were still random fills, compared to our set up 8 man. We still had to divide the 8 man team we were trying to play as into 4 and 4, with 8 randomly filled players. And yes, whether friends or randoms from a fleet, we still lose people when one team wins too much. They're people after all.

(I will admit, and offer a small apology for the tone of my last post. Irrate or not, I suppose it's not nice to call someone an ignorant ****. It was uncalled for.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
And finally, you've told me you have been "berating people on the fleet" to q for ranked. Nobody's going to respond to that, and I would hope anyone without a serious concussion would be smart enough to know that. The way I see it, there are two possible reasons for someone to bully strangers into playing a particular mode in some game:

-they don't actually want to play this mode
-they're seriously unstable.

Neither would surprise me, frankly.
Once you've tried asking, suggesting, announcing (you're in queue), forming 16 people to play, etc... Eventually one may begin scolding people for not being in ranked. Please stop assuming the first thing I did was long on, get a wild hair up my *** that I want to do ranked, then bashed people over the heads till they formed up.

=P and even if I am unstable, so is most of humanity. We're all pretty much crazy. However, nice attempt on my character.

Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
If you want my own opinion about how to solve this ranked teams stomping pugs problem (and it's a problem; I've been on both sides of this, getting stomped gearing up a fresh 50 when nobody's on and decimating with my carnage mara in a pyro/opheal/hybrijugg premade during the height of that groups OPness and it's not fun for normal people either way).

4 man ranked bracket. Fixes everything for everyone except the weirdos that think pugstomping is a sport, rather than a boring exercise in complete pointlessness.
This is actually an agreeable option. Should be a 4 man queue, in the hopes that if ranked is more accessible, we might actually get a pop. However... that is not an excuse to take away 4-man normal queue's. They are there for a legitmate reason.

TLR: You've misread or missunderstood half of what I said, nitpicked at certian wording, attempted to create false conclussions, and in general have been incorrect. On my side, I apologize for an overly aggressive post, and agree with your last suggestion.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 06:22 PM | #216
Quote: Originally Posted by Ashaari View Post
I am trying not to get further involved in this thread but you are really starting to irritate me.

a) When are you going to pay my sub? If not stop telling me how I should play or queue.

b) separate queues would be bad for YOU, because YOUR queue time would go up, soloers queue times would decrease once word got around that they no longer have to face Pre mades.

c) Pre-mades themselves are a bit of a pain, but, it is their use of external voice programmes that gives them an unfair advantage i.e. Skype/TS/Mumble etc. Not all of us can speak the same languages, not all of us live in environments where we can reasonably use voice comms during peak times. If this facility was meant to be inherent in the game then BW should have included it (as WoW did some years ago - dont know if it is still available I left WoW several years ago).

If you want to queue as a pre-made then that is your choice and you should have the facility to do so - I just want to make my own choices and queue in the environment in which I wish to play why is that so difficult a concept for you to understand?

As to PuG players not wanting to better themselves, elitist or what? I suspect without your team you would be easy meat for a skilled player 1 v 1, even for a solo queuer who is not wanting to better themselves (that comment was what irritated me into posting again - incinuating you are better than solo'ers becuase you are carried by other players)
a. If you see a commando running around with +str boots and pants, +willpower belt, +absorb on their weapon, and using a rifle, would you not tell them their main stat is aim? Especially, if you -had- to play with them?

Now, so you don't think I'm calling you a complete idiot, of course you're not running around in the wrong main stat. The underlying principle remains the same. However, if you wanna throw the trantum card "Don't tell me what to do!" fine. But, expect to lose.

Now, also so no one thinks I'm "trying to save the game" or some other holy crusade crap, assume my reasons are selfish. Chances are, PuG's in with my premade decrease my chances of winning.

b. They would be bad for everyone, remember the whole splitting the pool conversation? We'll use bigger numbers this time. 64 in the pool, normally 20 in 4 man premades. 64 is enough for 4 continues matches at all times (16x4) .

Now you have a pool of 44 and 20. Pug'ers get 2 matches (16 x 2) with a remainder of 12 left floating. Team players get 1 (4x4 man teams), with 1 4 man floating. Everyone loses out. Perhaps not noticable on high pop servers in On-hours, but definitely during off hours or Low pop servers.

b2. Your part B is completely selfish. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Mind you, with the current problem you're facing, a solution has been offered. With the problem you propose, your answer is basically **** you.

c. My guild only uses mumble for the once in a blue moon event we get some ranked matches. That being said, you have a semi-valid point. Fact of the matter remains mumble/vent exist. Nothing EA can do about it. If you'd like to voice a complaint/suggestion that voice chat be added into the ToR code, I doubt you'd have anyone disagreeing.

d. I completely understand, but that's not how the game is played. Part of the reason I urge you to read "Playing to Win" by Sirlin. I was in your shoes once, it was hard for me to come to terms with it. I'm still battling parts of my scrub days (Using medpaks still feels so cheap, and I keep forgetting cybertech grenades).

e. My 1 vs 1 skills are pretty average, you are correct. I can hold my own fairly well, but I'd put my average 1 vs 1 at 40%. 1 vs 1 has always been my weak spot, and I'm working on it. Wanna know why I win though? Teamwork.

I communicate Incomings, then hit survival mode while those wonderfully skilled PuG's try and 1 vs. 1 me and cap. Sometimes I kill them, sometimes they kill me, but they are always killed without a cap. I stop shooting for a moment and mark targets for my team. I switch my guard, throw taunts, and peel off my healers. I stop Dps'ing and off heal in a pinch.

(Now for a part of my own)

As you've decided to throw a vague insult at my dueling prowess, shall I assume you wish for your PuG only wz's because you're one of those 1vs1 heroes we laugh at? You know, that guy who, vs. bad PuG's can solo a guard and cap, and feel all warm and tingly inside for a job well done! Of course, when you get in a real match that never works.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar

10.23.2012 , 11:07 PM | #217
As someone who is in a dual focus build and PVPs pretty much exclusively with premades, I'm more than a little insulted at the notion that people in premades are just cowards who would rather roll over undergeared fresh 50s than engage in competitive play, and if nothing else that stance taken by people who at other times I'd thought were intelligent members of the community makes me just not want to listen to anything you have to say, suck it up, or quit.

First thing I ever do whenever logging on with the intention of PVPing is "/g anyone wanna group up for 50 PVP?" That's it. It's that easy. If no one says yes after about 15 seconds, I'll just go queue, solo, but usually someone is down, or is already playing and we form a group as soon as they're done. From that perspective, yes I don't see why it's so hard for other people to make premades. I'd have quit a long time ago if not for guildmates, they're what keep the game fun, but I understand intellectually that not everyone's experience is the same as mine.

Anyway there are perfectly legitimate reasons for making premades and not doing ranked.

1) Group size is irrelevent. You log on, you group up with 1-3 other people who also happen to want to PVP, and you go. Nice and easy. Only one other person? Who cares? Just go ahead and queue! It is very rare where I'll log in and no one wants to PVP, but it's also veryr are that I log in and we have a full 8 people who want to PVP and without 8 people you can't do ranked period. In the meantime, your chances of winning are higher, and if you lose anyway, well misery loves company and at least you can complain about the awful PuGs together. Since we're often looking to fill out ranked teams it's also a chance to see other players in action and scout good players who might be unguilded, or in guilds that don't PVP but they themselves are still interested in ranked.

2) Group composition/gear is irrelevent. If the other 2 people who want to PVP are both DPS or both tanks who cares? Just go ahead and queue! Often even if we DO have 8 players on, it's not the proper composition to form a competitive ranked group, and often not the best geared either. In normal warzones that's fine, we're just trying to have fun, get our daily/weekly done, and do so while playing with players we know and like, and whom we know don't suck (or in my case, my guildmates know HOW I suck, so they can sort of compensate for my weaknesses). I've done a premade that was 3 tanks and a DPS. At that point you know your team makeup isn't going to be optimal, but that's ok. No healers? Just queue anyway. Can't do that when you're trying for ranked though. You think getting rolled by premades is bad? Trying walking into ranked without a good group composition, and with people in mediocre gear. You can have a bad night pretty darn quick, and since there aren't a lot of teams queuing for ranked, you'll run into the same very well geared and coordinated team again and again, whereas in the normal warzones, at least you can usually avoid running into the same team again and again (cept at late hours).

Either way premades are often the best of both worlds. You get to play with people you know and like, but you don't have to worry that everyone is perfectly geared and that you have the absolute perfect composition.

Until they can actually implement cross server queuing I just don't see splitting solo and group queues as being all that viable. All it would do would either make both queues too slow, or people would gravitate toward one or the other and that's a lose-lose proposition. If people are flowing to the solo queues, then the game is de fact discouraging group play, and that's just not something that should ever be encouraged in an MMO at all. On the otherhand, if things gravitated towards the premade queues, then we all know you solo queuers would be whining you aren't getting pops. Either way it's just a bad thing.

If they CAN ever implement cross server queuing then I would propose the following three brackets.

1) Solo 50. Allows only solo queuers, awards normal warzone commendations. Of course the war heros can still come in, but the reward will be less, and one war hero geared player can't swing the tide of an entire match most of the time. Since fresh 50s from all servers would constantly be providing fresh players to this bracket, I don't see queue times being a problem.

2) Ranked Warzones. Allows groups of 1-4 to queue, and awards ELO rating based on wins and losses, as well as ranked warzone comms. It would basically be what we have now, but undergeared and solo queuers would know exactly what they're getting into and would have an out if they don't want to risk getting rolled. It would also make the war hero gear grind a bit better (which btw gives an incentive for better geared people to leave the fresh 50s the hell alone), and yes would be where a lot of people spend their 50 PVP time, especially once they get battlemaster, but perhaps not. With the ELO rating, the system would attempt to match people with similar ELO ratings to create closer games, and something similar to the group finder could be implemented where it at least attempts to make sure each team has a healer (though if not enough healers available it would just form a team of people who have been waiting for more than 2 minutes, similar to how it would match people with greatly different ELO ratings if it can't match people up against similarly rated teams). Again, that kind of fine tuned matchmaking requires a large population to pull from, so need cross server to really have this be any kind of viable solution.

3) Team Ranked. Pretty much exactly what we have now. Need a full team of 8 to queue. Queue at your own risk. The big differences is you should get reconnected into the warzone if you DC (no backfill for team ranked), and there should be some sort of incentive to do ranked. New gear (not necessarily in stats, but in looks and NOT palette swaps). This is where the elite people with the right setup can go.

I'd very much be in favor of a system like this, but until we have the cross server population to properly support it, I think it would only hurt things overall.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.


LenrocNewDawn's Avatar

10.24.2012 , 01:47 AM | #218
You can not have competition as long as you don't have balance, and one can't improve unless he is competing against others of similar skill level until he best them all and then moving to the superior level. In order to have balance, hence competition, some rules must be used when organizing matches. SWTOR doesn't have that, as far as I know, which leads to some very one sided WZs. Such WZs, where there is no real competition, are detrimental to the PvP mentality, class perception, core mechanics perception of the players that find themselves on the weaker team (weaker = neck stomped) . And last but not least to their fun meter . BW should consider taking steps in improving their match making system as the least they can do for the PvP aspect of this game.

P.S. I agree with all those that preach grouping, improving, getting to the next level etc. But in all fairness guys you have ranked WZs for that end level PvP play and sadly those look like a haunted house right now. So maybe you too should put the effort in to make those work instead of limiting yourself at farming regulars. Not that I don't do that occasionally, but it gets old fast, at least for me .
“Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.”

Draekos's Avatar

10.24.2012 , 04:27 AM | #219
So I decided to queue for the first time in a week. Ran into a double imp premade(same guild) vs. my pure pug. Result Voidstar win(screenshot if needed, held back to protect ppls egos). I still would like to see some seperation for the fresh 50s.

Kalfear's Avatar

10.24.2012 , 04:30 AM | #220
Quote: Originally Posted by Atramar View Post
point of notice, won't work since people will optimize L61-63 pve gear to fit into WZ3 and have more stats.
why 1226 exacly?
Having done the gear progression myself I picked 1226 because that requires a player to have at least 3-4 peices of War hero to reach. Normally Main hand, Off hand, 2 armor, combined with battlemaster gear.

Plus at 1220 you start to notice your able to damage the elite war hero people.
Not kill them obviously but your over the hump of no visable damage

So your not completely out geared by the high end and your not uber geared vrs the low end

Its simply the most logical spot for the transition is all.

Optimizing stats are not the kicker, anyone in battlemaster can optimize stats as well through augments and creative design.

Expertise is the huge difference between a recruit geared player and a elite war hero player.
The bonuses are just to big to over come when the stat optimization applied.

You cant stop min/maxers from min/naxing, and nor should you IMO
But you can stop them from stacking expertise to create a unbeatable situation.

1225 is just the logical middle of the road.

No other reason beyond common sense

PS: Saw a post saying battlemaster rating 140 so if my above design to complexe. Going with a no items containing a rating over 140 also works out to almost same spot!
In regards to lessening F2P and Preferred restrictions
In GAMING, as in LIFE,
You get what you pay for
No game restriction is so dire that $15.00/month will not eliminate it