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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

LordXayd's Avatar


LordXayd
01.30.2013 , 04:49 PM | #2121
Quote: Originally Posted by Aowin View Post
This is a silly argument. Premades are a feature of Warzones that BioWare intentionally incorporated. If anyone actually understands how the system works, Warzones function in a way that if a premade queues for a Warzone, it will more than likely be placed against another premade on the opposing faction. You want to fight against premades ruining your experience? Make your own premade. What is actually "ruining" PvP if anything are the exuberant amounts of bad players who go into warzones not even wearing recruit gear and making their team lose. I don't even think you should be allowed to queue unless you at least have 1000 expertise.
You know how hard it is to find game mechanic information for TOR, like anywhere? I mean supposedly, A 10K companion gives you 5% crit crafting chance, but we dont really know that for a fact. We only know what Dulfy's site tells us and how credible is that insider info? Not a single other site suggests that and it's certainly not reflected ingame. Do the ship droids and HK share that mechanic? You would assume so, but Dulfy doesnt even mention it. They are a different type of companion after all.

And yet, you know that the queue algorithm attempts to pair off groups? Do you have any evidence of that, or has it just been your experience? I don't your fault your experience of course. That's all we ever have to go on in this game.

Though, people who show up in PvE blue 50 gear rather than free recruit do aggravate me too. Everyone's got an opinion on the expertise thing. Seems rather obvious to me, especially since you can prove it numerically with the tool tips. I do agree a Black Hole healer has more output potential than a WH healer, but only if they're left alone to free-cast. Which of course you can't count upon.
To everyone that feels like flaming me, I don't care. The forums were put up so prematurely before game release that every thought has been expressed a thousand times over, and I don't feel like reading the 1000 prior threads to ensure they aren't an exact match for mine.

Aowin's Avatar


Aowin
01.30.2013 , 06:09 PM | #2122
Quote: Originally Posted by LordXayd View Post
You know how hard it is to find game mechanic information for TOR, like anywhere? I mean supposedly, A 10K companion gives you 5% crit crafting chance, but we dont really know that for a fact. We only know what Dulfy's site tells us and how credible is that insider info? Not a single other site suggests that and it's certainly not reflected ingame. Do the ship droids and HK share that mechanic? You would assume so, but Dulfy doesnt even mention it. They are a different type of companion after all.

And yet, you know that the queue algorithm attempts to pair off groups? Do you have any evidence of that, or has it just been your experience? I don't your fault your experience of course. That's all we ever have to go on in this game.

Though, people who show up in PvE blue 50 gear rather than free recruit do aggravate me too. Everyone's got an opinion on the expertise thing. Seems rather obvious to me, especially since you can prove it numerically with the tool tips. I do agree a Black Hole healer has more output potential than a WH healer, but only if they're left alone to free-cast. Which of course you can't count upon.
Actually yes. I can't remember which developer said it and when (I think it was Damion Schubert), but in one of their Q&As or interviews, they explained how the queue system for Warzones work. The system places premades against other premades if it can. Anyone in a premade should be able to confirm that more often than not they are going against a premade on the opposing team.

Obviously this isn't a perfect science as sometimes there aren't other premades, or there aren't enough players, etc. The point is the system is in place and the queue system tries to even out the playing field. Regardless, premades aren't some sort of exploit or something only the select few can do. Everyone can do them. Make friends. Build groups. You are much more likely to succeed in a warzone with a group than by yourself.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

Arkerus's Avatar


Arkerus
01.30.2013 , 07:05 PM | #2123
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
I'll ask for the millionth time, why can't we have a PUG only option? You guys can still have your normal Warzones with your 4 man premades and people who want to do a few quick PvP matches for fun can use the PUG only option... It amazes me SO many "" Hardcore PvP'ers "" are opposed to this.... This tells me one thing they don't want to have a fair fight, they want the advantage and they want Bioware to force pug players to keep going against premades..

Sitting around the fleet trying to get random people in a premade is no different then joining the Que and getting put in with random people.... Oh you say well make some friends... So I'm suppose to wait on the fleet until my friends log in before I can do any PvP? that's your guys solution?

Be nice if a Dev from the PvP department would grow some balls and comment on this.....
They don't want solo queue only because then they can't faceroll pugs. They disguise it with they "like the teamwork and "challenge" of using a premade." Lol
Hooning in the rex : http://youtu.be/xtXUM6yPMCY

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
01.30.2013 , 07:46 PM | #2124
you cant create 2 separate queue b/c this game does not have the population to sustain them.

within a week, you would see people gaming the PUG queue to get in with their friends. it would literally be the same exact thing all over, people whining about premades in the PUG queue.


for like the millionth time: if you want to separate bad PUGs from decent (or better) premades, you need real skill-based matchmaking. that is the only thing that will actually work to separate the bads from the goods. and even then, i dont think that individual servers have the population to sustain something like that. you need x-server queuing, which is a massive long-shot with this game.
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
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V-Serp's Avatar


V-Serp
01.30.2013 , 09:43 PM | #2125
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkerus View Post
They don't want solo queue only because then they can't faceroll pugs. They disguise it with they "like the teamwork and "challenge" of using a premade." Lol
They also like to insist that a solo queue wouldn't help at all and the population is too small to support two queues (see above, also read: most people solo queue).

That former comment cracks me up every time. The reason not to do something is it would take more effort to do something that people are complaining about in the first place. That's just brilliant. Maintain the status quo because someone claims a change wouldn't work so that they can keep doing what they're doing.

And if the group population is too small, then Biofail shouldn't be catering to them. They can nut up and solo queue or they can sit there and wait until someone else wants to play a group game. Only a dev team intent on sabotaging a game would drive away 90% of their subscriber base to pander to 10%. That is not sound game development or business sense.

F2P is giving this game a new set of eyes and a second chance. Biofail is the very definition of insanity to insist on repeating these same errors.

This game is going to die for good within 3-4 months, when most of the newer player base caps at 50 and tries out PVP, and realizes they hate it. The reason they lost all those subs to begin with is because there was nothing to do after capping, PVP was extremely popular, and then this dev team made sure to gut it and create these dumb imbalances. They literally lost 50% of their sub base after the retarded 1.2 balance changes when something like 50% of the player base was rolling Sorc/Sage and Merc/Commando. They then continued to bleed more and more subs as they continued to ignore their awful balance changes, PVP mechanic changes and premade vs PUG complaints (they are not new, they've been there the entire time).

I just hope before it dies for good they give us an offline/lan/private server option to play with. It's a good PVE game, just nobody really thinks it is worth $150-180 a year for it.

symke's Avatar


symke
01.31.2013 , 06:36 AM | #2126
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post

Be nice if a Dev from the PvP department would grow some balls and comment on this.....
What you are asking is too much for them. First of all they don't have any to begin with, and if they would start commenting (which would be like a miracle in this game) they would only be able to show us their incompetence.
Or they simply can't comment as there is no one in PVP dept. They've all been moved to Cartel market section .

Arutar's Avatar


Arutar
01.31.2013 , 08:37 AM | #2127
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
you cant create 2 separate queue b/c this game does not have the population to sustain them. [...]

you need x-server queuing, which is a massive long-shot with this game.
I concur: I am all for seperate queing but we need cross server queues first.

Also, can I haz Arenas?

I really would love an pvp developer to comment on the plans (beyond the attempt to revive illum).

HobbesTay's Avatar


HobbesTay
01.31.2013 , 08:45 AM | #2128
A number of people have suggested that the way forward is to some how group all "bads" together and group all "elites" together in some way or another, either by some kind of skill or gear match making system.

to me this is totally the wrong way to go since it would detract from the overall experience of playing WZ's. Each Warezone should have a similar mix of people with different abilities so that you don't have all the "elites" on one side and all the "bads" on the other. after all the "bads" need someone to learn off and the "elites" need someone to bring them down a peg or two now and again

It should be feasible to have one queue for both solo and ranked WZ's (not two separate like now) but make it optional as to what type of oposition you are willing to play against (i.e. 2 man groups?,4 man groups?,8 man groups)
This may sound like it would not work for ranked but I think it would as you could then have solo queuers (and there are a lot of them) who would have a go ranked and make up the numbers where a group of friends can't get a full ranked 8 man team. (obviously they are taking a chance with a pug but this is probably better than not being able to do rated at all)

On the flip side the solo queuers would also be able to choose NOT to play against groups, which may mean they will have to wait a little longer in the queue but will at least get a totally random selection of players with all skill and gear types which is how some people like to play WZ's.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
01.31.2013 , 09:43 AM | #2129
Quote: Originally Posted by LordXayd View Post
I only brought up GG's quality to illustrate how ineffective a pug is against them, which reduces the fun factor for anyone who's not hardcore, and I'm sure that's not something BW wants.

In regards to it not resolving the quitters problem, let me elaborate. I believe it will mitigate the issue. Don't you breathe a sigh of relief when you solo queue into a group with a quality premade, because you're worried about a premade on the other side? But if there were no premades, the gear distribution in a pop would be far more even, an aspect that you could effectively rely on from pop to pop. A quitter, knowing that there is no premade and with a statistically even distribution of gear and skill, is more likely to stay. Only quitting on the odd pop.

Now I wasn't thinking there should be 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 queues (if that's what you meant). You're either grouped or you're not, but you do bring up a point about the 3v3. I guess you'd have to test it to see how effective it was. But is very possible that we'll get a larger pool if solo queueing was separated. And again, cross-server queueing would fix the wait issue. I know that's been done in other games.
Rage quitters aren't quitting because there is a premade on the other side. I would hazard a guess that half of them aren't paying enough attention to even notice. All it takes is losing two turrets or giving up a door early or one bad move by someone to get them out. Matchmaking will only help because the game should be more even. People will still drop when one of the players makes a mistake. There is no guarantee of even games by having a solo only queue. You could still very easily run up against 8 far more geared players and get destroyed. All you do is take away the ability of any one person to ensure their team will be on the right side of the gap.

As to team makeups, I was referring to putting teams together with different group sizes. If a group of 3 queues, they will have a significantly longer wait time because it will require another group of 3 and a group of 2 to queue in order for them to get matched up. I don't think population will be high enough to guarantee you will have another 3-man available if you happen to have 2 friends on to play.

Not to mention, you are basically punishing any more casual players who want to group with friends by sticking them in a group only queue that will have significantly more high level players in it. As long as BW manages to make a decent matchmaking system, it should resolve the issue as low end PUGs will only see low end premades.
I have opinions and stuff

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
01.31.2013 , 09:49 AM | #2130
Quote: Originally Posted by HobbesTay View Post
A number of people have suggested that the way forward is to some how group all "bads" together and group all "elites" together in some way or another, either by some kind of skill or gear match making system.

to me this is totally the wrong way to go since it would detract from the overall experience of playing WZ's. Each Warezone should have a similar mix of people with different abilities so that you don't have all the "elites" on one side and all the "bads" on the other. after all the "bads" need someone to learn off and the "elites" need someone to bring them down a peg or two now and again

It should be feasible to have one queue for both solo and ranked WZ's (not two separate like now) but make it optional as to what type of oposition you are willing to play against (i.e. 2 man groups?,4 man groups?,8 man groups)
This may sound like it would not work for ranked but I think it would as you could then have solo queuers (and there are a lot of them) who would have a go ranked and make up the numbers where a group of friends can't get a full ranked 8 man team. (obviously they are taking a chance with a pug but this is probably better than not being able to do rated at all)

On the flip side the solo queuers would also be able to choose NOT to play against groups, which may mean they will have to wait a little longer in the queue but will at least get a totally random selection of players with all skill and gear types which is how some people like to play WZ's.
Matchmaking wouldn't necessarily keep bad players from ever seeing good players, it will just make the teams even. So if I have a rating of say 50 and queue with someone who has a rating of 100, we would see team player averages around 75.
I have opinions and stuff