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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
12.27.2012 , 04:05 PM | #1911
I was in an ACW today and we had the west node and were fighting over the south. Those individuals at the west decided that they were going to be Rambos, there were two of them, and attack east and leave no one guarding west.

They died in the attempt and lost the west node in the process before help could get up there. They neglected some of the most basic rules in PvP and they should have known better.

We eventually won, but the idiocy of these two is an example of why people get into premades.

People can only deal with idiots for so long and queuing up with your friends who you know are going to do what needs to be done, regardless of boredom or lack of kills, to insure that your team wins the match.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.27.2012 , 04:59 PM | #1912
Quote: Originally Posted by gumbojambalaya View Post
agreed. it's unfair to team up against pugs. you can't penalize the solo player and reward guilds for rather unsporting behavior. arena is there for them, but they'd rather give pugs grief. they're exploiting the system for easy wins and rewards. what more needs to be said?
The flaw in your argument is the presumption that losing to a team of better players is an externally imposed "penalty", rather than the inevitable outcome of engaging in a competitive endeavor against those with superior skill/tactics.

Furthermore, the idea that someone beating you is displaying bad sportsmanship, while anyone losing to you is displaying good sportsmanship, is also an inaccurate (and frankly self-serving) premise.

Exploit: Transitive Verb. 1: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage.

Good players don't group with other good players to be mean. They group with other good players because it makes more sense than grouping with bad players.

Fairly? Last time I checked grouping with other players was an option available to EVERYBODY. If there are limitations in your PERSONAL life that preclude your ability to group with other players, the presumably it is your PERSONAL responsiblity to overcome those limitations.

Same goes for being good. If you aren't good, it's not the responsibility of Bioware of the rest of the player base to avoid you.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

P-Chan's Avatar


P-Chan
12.27.2012 , 05:34 PM | #1913
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
The flaw in your argument is the presumption that losing to a team of better players is an externally imposed "penalty", rather than the inevitable outcome of engaging in a competitive endeavor against those with superior skill/tactics.

Furthermore, the idea that someone beating you is displaying bad sportsmanship, while anyone losing to you is displaying good sportsmanship, is also an inaccurate (and frankly self-serving) premise.

Exploit: Transitive Verb. 1: to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage.

Good players don't group with other good players to be mean. They group with other good players because it makes more sense than grouping with bad players.

Fairly? Last time I checked grouping with other players was an option available to EVERYBODY. If there are limitations in your PERSONAL life that preclude your ability to group with other players, the presumably it is your PERSONAL responsiblity to overcome those limitations.

Same goes for being good. If you aren't good, it's not the responsibility of Bioware of the rest of the player base to avoid you.
I dont think he was meaning JUST losing is bad Sportsmanship. But when the "better" players are camping the spawn location. THAT is bad sportsmanship. And I am sorry. Not grouping up to queue does NOT make you a bad player. Whatever you may want to think. Why is it that all you pro premaders all seem to think that? Our point is, you should NOT be FORCED to premade to have fun. Win or Lose. I could not give a rats A** if I win or lose, as long as its a fun game. Getting Steam Rolled is NOT fun. Hence why myself and a lot of other people just stopped playing. As the trend seems to be following. So keep up you attitude. Keep thinking there is not anything wrong with the current system. And you will end up queuing for RWZs all the time, cause RWZ or Reg WZ will be the same queue time....

DarthSabreth's Avatar


DarthSabreth
12.27.2012 , 05:38 PM | #1914
Quote: Originally Posted by gumbojambalaya View Post
agreed. it's unfair to team up against pugs. you can't penalize the solo player and reward guilds for rather unsporting behavior. arena is there for them, but they'd rather give pugs grief. they're exploiting the system for easy wins and rewards. what more needs to be said?
i cant agree more, they gear up / get their alts geared up twice as fast as the puggie. they need a cross server pvp que and segregate all premades to the ranked ques.
"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" Rip .

Vasagi's Avatar


Vasagi
12.27.2012 , 05:46 PM | #1915
Arguing semantics doesn't add weight to your opinion. This is the problem we, as people who are not in large and well geared pvp guilds, deal with:

1. Our RL friends quit. We are stuck on a server that does not have a large population of pvp guilds. The ones that exist are not open to bringing in "unkowns" for their premades or rateds.

2. From my experience, the "pro" pvpers are generally very rude, arrogant, hostile to strangers, and clique oriented. I do not enjoy socializing with these people. I have to tolerate it in real life for work and school, but I do not have to tolerate it in a game I play for enjoyment. To put it bluntly, I don't like you and I won't bootlick to get a spot in your premade.

3. This is not a profession, career, or real life necessity. It's a GAME made for FUN. Everytime you curbstomp a pug player, they get a little closer to cancelling their subscription. There is a reason the game is shrinking, and while pvp isn't the only problem, for those of us in pug hell it's the biggest problem. When the game is no longer fun, we will find something else that is. There is no shortage of entertainment out there.

Having said that, until they implement cross server queues, the population will not support a separate bracket for premades. I personally think they should allow solo players, or at least 4 man groups, into the rated category.

However, from experience I've seen that most "pros" won't even queue unless they have the optimum comp, optimum gear, and a guaranteed win. 4 man rated would most likely end up as dead as the 8 man rated is now because you would be stuck with whatever the other 4 man group is and not have the option to bail on a game without penalty.

Monoth's Avatar


Monoth
12.27.2012 , 06:18 PM | #1916
Quote: Originally Posted by Vasagi View Post

However, from experience I've seen that most "pros" won't even queue unless they have the optimum comp, optimum gear, and a guaranteed win. 4 man rated would most likely end up as dead as the 8 man rated is now because you would be stuck with whatever the other 4 man group is and not have the option to bail on a game without penalty.
Exactly, premades don't want to fight other premades, they want easy kills against pugs.

Bottom line the majority of players are casual players, for PvE and PvE RP servers there should be a pug ONLY option. The match making system also needs to be tweak so that it balances out both sides, either both sides get a healer or nobody gets a healer..

The REASON the warzone pops take so long is the premades have ran off most of the casual pvp'ers and the few that have stay are slowly leaving themselves making the situation worse. Add a PUG only option and I Guarantee you warzones will be very busy.
F2P is like driving on a long stretch of highway with toll booths every 1/2 mile

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
12.27.2012 , 06:52 PM | #1917
Criminal there hasn't been a counter to that because it is so obvious. Hardcore players play a lot more than casuals (hence hardcore lol). Many casuals get on to complete their daily (and maybe a couple more if they are having fun). However many premades that you see will play for hours.

Also, 1 premade out of 16 players would cause the problem we are talking about. Furthermore it doesn't have to be every single match for there to be many complaints.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
12.27.2012 , 10:02 PM | #1918
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post

Bottom line the majority of players are casual players, for PvE and PvE RP servers there should be a pug ONLY option. The match making system also needs to be tweak so that it balances out both sides, either both sides get a healer or nobody gets a healer..
Do you ave any idea how long the queues might be if you have to wait for a tank or a healer?

Why should the healers on the opposing side not get to PvP if there are none on your side?

I solo queue and PUG 90% of my matches and I have gotten rolled by premades. It happens, but by the same token, I have been grouped with a premade and have done the rolling.

I have also been in PUGs where we destroyed premades. The secret to that success?

Communication and experience. People actually understood what the objectives of the WZ were and worked towards accomplishing them. They also, and I know that this must come as a shock to some, we used the OPs chat to call incomings and other information that is useful to insure a win. We worked to support one another and not just kill chase.

I've seen too many players leave a node to chase someone down and then have that node get ninja capped.

For everyone claiming that fighting premades suck, they're right, they do sometimes. Until of course, you're on the premades side and winning your matches.

Zataos's Avatar


Zataos
12.27.2012 , 10:05 PM | #1919
Come on Bioware, implement a fricking matchmaker already, if you queue with a 2 man premade you will be matched up against a 2 man premade, 4 man with 4 man 8 with 8, 90% of your imbalance problems solved.
The Chaoticas Legacy -The Shadowlands Server - (40k kills)
(Havaos Jug 50) (Devaos Sorc 50) (Vorhen BH 50) (Venaos Sin 50) (Xaos BH 50) (Zorgen Jug 50) (Zataos Mara 50) (Gwaraos BH 50) (Xenaos Mara 42) (Tavaos Sin 50) (Jenaos Snip 41) (Scaraos Op 27) (Ravaos Jug 31) (Xinaos Sorc 32) (Dreadaos - Jug 22)

Zataos's Avatar


Zataos
12.27.2012 , 10:24 PM | #1920
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
I've had a long post on page 185 or 186 trying to give a detailed explanation why it's very difficult for them to do anything about these uneven matches. I won't repeat myself, look it up if you want but the core of the issue is that they can't improve the situation wihout making cross-server queues and lowering the entry barrier to ranked. If they did both as well as increased the incentive to play ranked, then most premades would go there on their own and we'd only have a handful of guilds left in non-ranked that really want nothing but feel godly by stomping pugs.

Unfortunately there are ways around disallowing 4 people to queue together for non-ranked or queue separation (like sync queuing or teams of 3 queuing together), so queue separation without cross-server queues would just serve to piss people off. Premade queues would simply go dead and we'd have massive imbalance in the solo queue.

Unfortunately for us Bioware seems to be against cross-server queues. Whether it is because they lack the resources, tech or know-how to modify Hero Engine for XServer queues can be debated but one thing remains certain, cross-server queues (for now at least) are in the back barn. And splitting the population without increasing it in another way would be catastrophic at this point.

Is it annoying? Yes. Is it stupid that they don't have XServer queues? Yes. Should it have been in the game from day 1? Yes. Will we be forever in pre-season without XServer queues? Presumably, yes. Would less people have left had we had Xserver queues? Also, presumably, yes.

Unfortunately, Bioware seems to go completely against what common sense dictates and they seem to stubbornly deviate from the path that has made other MMOs (reasonably) successful. But personally I think it's because of their greedy EA overlords that they can't implement anything that doesn't result in an immediate monetary gain. Cross-server queues should increase the population in the long run and bring some old players back but EA doesn't give money for something that might or might not return profits someday, a perfect example of shortsighted greediness.

All that negative said, however, the devs did say that they hoped to implement a better matchmaking system one day (not even the usual SOONtm) and it's clear that there's a major PvP balance patch coming shortly. Let's see what that is and who knows, maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised. (Or it might be just another round of nerfing operatives and mercs knowing their past.)

EDIT: I think the devs don't respond because they don't have anything to say. They know that they need cross-server queues to address this issue. They can't give us cross-server queues, so they can't address the issue. So they don't want to admit that they are incapable of addressing the issue. (I bet, though, that they're reading this thread.)
I believe that you are dead wrong on EA being the issue, Bioware has clung to this Mickey Mouse role player nonsense mentality of "building community" and X-server ques somehow hurting community. In every instance Bioware and its single player, baby game roots have hurt its MMO endeavor.
The Chaoticas Legacy -The Shadowlands Server - (40k kills)
(Havaos Jug 50) (Devaos Sorc 50) (Vorhen BH 50) (Venaos Sin 50) (Xaos BH 50) (Zorgen Jug 50) (Zataos Mara 50) (Gwaraos BH 50) (Xenaos Mara 42) (Tavaos Sin 50) (Jenaos Snip 41) (Scaraos Op 27) (Ravaos Jug 31) (Xinaos Sorc 32) (Dreadaos - Jug 22)