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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
12.26.2012 , 08:20 PM | #1901
Quote: Originally Posted by YaanaOhtar;
Premade , you are not freaking better skill, the only thing you have is eliminate the newplayer in you group.
LOL. okay so according to you why do the premades still win when they bring recruit gear alts who just hit 50? or when they go full recruit gear for the whole 4 just for giggles? Yeah, they're better. There are very few great pug players (less than your thinking... Still less... less again... now ur about right), and they will admit that the vast majority of great players are in premades.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
12.26.2012 , 08:37 PM | #1902
Most people, casuals included, want to win but in my experience of running a couple large pvp guilds in past games is that the more casual players don't have to win that often to have fun. They just don't want to get stomped without much chance of doing anything. Sure they want to win as much as possible but many don't NEED to win that often.

What just really turns these people off is having match after match against premades of way higher gear. Especially the kinds that then go and spawncamp/3cap/etc.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
12.26.2012 , 08:53 PM | #1903
Quote: Originally Posted by Feskitt View Post
They're probably laughing cause no matter what convoluted explanations you make, you're just another premader scared of facing other premades.

All you got is excuses.

That's all any of you got.

U scared bro?

watlol

i would LOVE to be able to reliably queue up and face other premades in Ranked. i could care less if i lose (my record is <.500 in fact overall). but do you know the number one reason why i would prefer to be playing Ranked all the time? it would be that i wouldnt have to put up with the flaming bads that are in the non-ranked bracket.

do you think those us of that want to play at a competitive level enjoy having meatheads on our own teams? or that we enjoy beating people who can barely handle not backpedaling or keyboard turning?

unfortunately, Ranked has an 8 man requirement and has an ever shrinking population. so participating in Ranked Warzones is usually a time consuming process.
Da'ny - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
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MaulrightNow's Avatar


MaulrightNow
12.26.2012 , 09:36 PM | #1904
Premades are not ideal but not the complete problem. The problem is that BW encouraged the whole premade idea since launch, went out of their way to benefit them, and ultimately made the highest tiered competition around the "premade policy". This created a massive amount of competitive issues. Additionally it further rewarded groups who could create ways to assemble 16ppl regardless of skill to have them face each other for max comms and rank in a fixed ranked WZ just so they could cheat the system to get rewards undue. So while there is the idea of that trinity of cross server, matchmaking balance, and premade balancing that is not what is needed to resolve this issue:

Ranked WZ needs to be changed from group only to pug only.

Is it risky? Yes. Will people be angry about it? Yes. But they will however be able to queue Ranked again and get into a match. There should additionally be a gear limitation to it so that the system prevents Recruit's from joining because that simply ruins the match. A valor limit would be ideal for this and is the actual purpose for valor...not for limiting shell use for cosmetics due to not enough WZ playing.

At least this way there is a valid tiered competitive arena that you can actually judge skill and cooperative play instead of maxing out teams with op fotm classes that roflstomp everything in their path.

Myself, I have 5 WH/EWH optimized 50's that I have rarely premade with even though I have been in some of the biggest pvp guilds on my servers. I prefer playing PUG v Any as it's a better test for how well I work with others. But with the new f2p 50's and Recruit Mark-2 gear I have noticed that this is completely a fail attempt. Either I will be matched with a premade so it will be 5-6 of us top tier geared VS anyone and it's normally an autowin, or I will be solo on an already defeated PUG team where I max objectives and coms/dps/heals and do over 2x what the next closest PUG did on my team. This by itself makes me get in and get out just for daily coms which is not the ideal atmosphere for WZs or constructive pvp.

Knockerz's Avatar


Knockerz
12.26.2012 , 10:00 PM | #1905
They won't do any thing about this until they start seeing people canceling their subscription or loss of profits due to the premade queue question. It's always about the bottom line. How much will they lose if they prevent premades from queuing into normal queues vs letting premades queue and losing solo queue players? That's the only question that matters for them.
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UncelSam's Avatar


UncelSam
12.27.2012 , 05:02 AM | #1906
This is turning out to be one of those typical issues the gamecompany cant solve fast enough. They claim to be listening to the playercommunity, but so far there has been ZERO comments from the devs about how thyer going to fix the premade issue. It is very obvious that the player community is NOT HAPPY with the current situation.

Just look at the massive amount of posts on this thread!

Probably Bioware wont react before its too late and ppl start cancelling and never return due to lost intrest in an unbalanced game. Ive seen it happen to other MMOS when they didnt fix issues of BIG concern before. In SWG we had a jedi problem that they ddint want to solve and now SWG is gone...this will turn out to be same magnitude of problem and will cause MAJOR problems to SWTOR if not fixed asap.

The fix is simple - just remove premades from regular queues.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
12.27.2012 , 06:56 AM | #1907
Quote: Originally Posted by UncelSam View Post
This is turning out to be one of those typical issues the gamecompany cant solve fast enough. They claim to be listening to the playercommunity, but so far there has been ZERO comments from the devs about how thyer going to fix the premade issue. It is very obvious that the player community is NOT HAPPY with the current situation.

Just look at the massive amount of posts on this thread!

Probably Bioware wont react before its too late and ppl start cancelling and never return due to lost intrest in an unbalanced game. Ive seen it happen to other MMOS when they didnt fix issues of BIG concern before. In SWG we had a jedi problem that they ddint want to solve and now SWG is gone...this will turn out to be same magnitude of problem and will cause MAJOR problems to SWTOR if not fixed asap.

The fix is simple - just remove premades from regular queues.
I've had a long post on page 185 or 186 trying to give a detailed explanation why it's very difficult for them to do anything about these uneven matches. I won't repeat myself, look it up if you want but the core of the issue is that they can't improve the situation wihout making cross-server queues and lowering the entry barrier to ranked. If they did both as well as increased the incentive to play ranked, then most premades would go there on their own and we'd only have a handful of guilds left in non-ranked that really want nothing but feel godly by stomping pugs.

Unfortunately there are ways around disallowing 4 people to queue together for non-ranked or queue separation (like sync queuing or teams of 3 queuing together), so queue separation without cross-server queues would just serve to piss people off. Premade queues would simply go dead and we'd have massive imbalance in the solo queue.

Unfortunately for us Bioware seems to be against cross-server queues. Whether it is because they lack the resources, tech or know-how to modify Hero Engine for XServer queues can be debated but one thing remains certain, cross-server queues (for now at least) are in the back barn. And splitting the population without increasing it in another way would be catastrophic at this point.

Is it annoying? Yes. Is it stupid that they don't have XServer queues? Yes. Should it have been in the game from day 1? Yes. Will we be forever in pre-season without XServer queues? Presumably, yes. Would less people have left had we had Xserver queues? Also, presumably, yes.

Unfortunately, Bioware seems to go completely against what common sense dictates and they seem to stubbornly deviate from the path that has made other MMOs (reasonably) successful. But personally I think it's because of their greedy EA overlords that they can't implement anything that doesn't result in an immediate monetary gain. Cross-server queues should increase the population in the long run and bring some old players back but EA doesn't give money for something that might or might not return profits someday, a perfect example of shortsighted greediness.

All that negative said, however, the devs did say that they hoped to implement a better matchmaking system one day (not even the usual SOONtm) and it's clear that there's a major PvP balance patch coming shortly. Let's see what that is and who knows, maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised. (Or it might be just another round of nerfing operatives and mercs knowing their past.)

EDIT: I think the devs don't respond because they don't have anything to say. They know that they need cross-server queues to address this issue. They can't give us cross-server queues, so they can't address the issue. So they don't want to admit that they are incapable of addressing the issue. (I bet, though, that they're reading this thread.)
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Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.27.2012 , 10:03 AM | #1908
Quote: Originally Posted by YaanaOhtar View Post
So all you hard core pro pvper are only care about winning, but not the challenging ? So you making a group to stomp on new player ?
First of all, I never claimed to be "pro". But I choose to play competitively, which means I am trying to win every match I'm in. I don't choose to ignore features of the game that are put there to help you win. I suggest you play the way that makes the game most enjoyable for you, but if winning is enjoyable than I suggest you re-evaluate the way you are playing.



Quote:
Really ? tell me would you take a recruit gear ? If you don't dare to take a recruit gear in your premade then your argument is just hollow words. You would never take a recruit gear when PUG will have to take a recruit gear. Your team will have less chance to get a recruit gears compare to PUG. So if everone is making a premade and no one taking a recruit gear, We have team of recruit being match up against pro WH +aug premade. Well done idiot you just put and end to all new player in this game.
Yes, when I group it's with whatever friends I have online. FYI, I typically PUG these days since most of my evening is spent in raids lately. The difference is that I do not go into the match expecting to have a team equal to what I would have if I made a premade. Don't get me wrong, I perform the best I can and work to win in any way we can, but if we lose I don't blame the other side because they were better as you seem to do. I don't quit games where my team doesn't have a lot of gear. If I wanted to win every match I played, then you're darn right I'd leave the recruits on the sidelines to fend for themselves and quit matches with a lot of them on my side. (this is where matchmaking comes into play)

I just recently had a toon hit 50 and played in mostly recruit gear. I had commendations to spend when I hit 50 since I planned ahead, but no legacy gear passing for this one. I had no problems competing in a WH/recruit mix. It takes maybe 20 hours to get full WH now if you lose every match, so gear is not even a relevant issue at this point.

Quote:
May be all of premade like you, having trouble understanding. PUGs have to accept newplayer and train them, that is what none rank casual wz for. Premade dont accept newplayer - recruit gear, hp below 16k -, chose specific classes to join, you are not freaking better skill, the only thing you have is eliminate the newplayer in you group. And i said again, if people all make premade in casual WZ, the only left will be recruit gear with no where to compete against Full WH premade group. So try to think before you ask s.o to make premade group, it's stupid idea.
a) I don't run premades often anymore
b) You have no idea how "skilled" I am (if anything in this game can really be considered skill)
c) I answer questions for new folks, run with PVE players in recruit/BM, and play with any class that wants to go in regular warzones
d) I never said this system is working perfectly, just that premades are not the culprit (insert matchmaking)

Just realize that if you choose not to take advantage of features built into the game, your chances of losing will increase. If you feel this feature should be removed than make an argument for why, but ensure that argument will actually fully resolve your issue. Right now you are saying that premades make matches unfair for new players, when in reality those players are doomed from the start when having to face better competition. If they had a solo queue, would new players not get destroyed by better players anyway? Removing premades only takes the advantage away from the individual (can no longer ensure you aren't on the bad team), it doesn't remove the problem of one team being better than another or make matches any closer.

No one cares who they play as long as the game is equal, whether they face a complete PUG or 8 people from the same guild. As there are good and bad premades and good and bad PUGs, mixing them is fine we just need a better system for doing so.
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criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.27.2012 , 01:35 PM | #1909
I would really still like to see someone counter the argument of "If the vast majority of players are casuals who don't have friends (or don't have any online, or time to make them) how is it you keep running into premades every match?"

Or the people that keep "threatening" premades by saying "soon casuals aren't even going to queue up, enjoy your 2+ hour wait times". Um...you get that if you won't let us queue up with casuals anyway, then it doesn't really make a difference to us if casuals are queueing up right?

It's is specifically to avoid the 2+ hour wait times, that has most premades arguing against separate queues to begin with.

But most importantly, STOP with all this overly emotional and frankly inaccurate complaining that says every premade is part of premade because they delight in hurting people's feelings, or "rubbing your face" in your losses. Yes we want a challenge, yes we play ranked. But sometimes we just want to get our daily done on 3 different toons. We log in, say "who's gotta spot?", queue up, win 2x, log out, then repeat the process with 2-3 of our alts. Never at any point are we cackling like a comic book super-villian about destroying some recruit geared PuG's PvP dreams. Just stop. It's silly.
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gumbojambalaya's Avatar


gumbojambalaya
12.27.2012 , 03:43 PM | #1910
agreed. it's unfair to team up against pugs. you can't penalize the solo player and reward guilds for rather unsporting behavior. arena is there for them, but they'd rather give pugs grief. they're exploiting the system for easy wins and rewards. what more needs to be said?