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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
12.26.2012 , 01:12 AM | #1891
Criminal...If you want to use a basketball example I will use one from my experience.

When I was in college we had a gym with 7 full courts, however only 3 were almost always available for pick up games. On these 3 courts you could almost always tell the skill difference.

You would occasionally see bad players decently under 6ft on the over 6ft court and you would occasionally see really good players on the least skilled of the courts, however this was rather rare and would often bring ridicule (of course behind their backs if it was the big guy on the lesser court lol).

I have also played in a lot of other gyms with 2-3 games going on consistently and this held true on those courts as well. Most people wanted to play in games that were near even.

Now in basketball 2 people can be of equal skill but one is a foot taller. They will be a lot better at basketball (again assuming equal skill). You can equate this to gear in mmos. You can also look at 2 players that (for the sake of this argument) have the same level of natural talent. However, one of these players has played for years and the other is rather new. The experienced player will be much better. Also, the experienced player will likely have friends to play with that complement his playstyle and will make his team even better.

Taking these things into account you could see that the players in these gyms would divide up and look for good games. Most everyone wanted to win and would do what they could to win on the court the should play on but the really good players would not go play on the worst of the courts just so that they could be sure they would win.

Most MMO premaders go against this and that is rather sad. If you are a well adjusted competitive player you should want more even matches and you should want premade matching. Otherwise you are just the loser that gets a group of similiar experienced and tall losers to play on the noob court. Man up!

LeonHawkeye's Avatar


LeonHawkeye
12.26.2012 , 02:48 AM | #1892
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthRaika View Post
Criminal...If you want to use a basketball example I will use one from my experience.

When I was in college we had a gym with 7 full courts, however only 3 were almost always available for pick up games. On these 3 courts you could almost always tell the skill difference.

You would occasionally see bad players decently under 6ft on the over 6ft court and you would occasionally see really good players on the least skilled of the courts, however this was rather rare and would often bring ridicule (of course behind their backs if it was the big guy on the lesser court lol).

I have also played in a lot of other gyms with 2-3 games going on consistently and this held true on those courts as well. Most people wanted to play in games that were near even.

Now in basketball 2 people can be of equal skill but one is a foot taller. They will be a lot better at basketball (again assuming equal skill). You can equate this to gear in mmos. You can also look at 2 players that (for the sake of this argument) have the same level of natural talent. However, one of these players has played for years and the other is rather new. The experienced player will be much better. Also, the experienced player will likely have friends to play with that complement his playstyle and will make his team even better.

Taking these things into account you could see that the players in these gyms would divide up and look for good games. Most everyone wanted to win and would do what they could to win on the court the should play on but the really good players would not go play on the worst of the courts just so that they could be sure they would win.

Most MMO premaders go against this and that is rather sad. If you are a well adjusted competitive player you should want more even matches and you should want premade matching. Otherwise you are just the loser that gets a group of similiar experienced and tall losers to play on the noob court. Man up!
Well said. Could not agree more. The fallacy in telling people to make friends and go form a pre-made of their own just needs to stop, it is not the way to fix the problem nor is it an acceptable solution for the vast majority of the game's population. The simple reality is the vast majority of our player base consists of casual, pug friendly players, these players tend to pop in and out and play the game as they please and/or their available play time allows. Most of these players are not hardcore nor have the resources that many of the more experienced and seasoned Premade players have; telling these players to play the game your way or get out, will not go over well for the overall health and population of the game, considering they comprise well over half the game's player base. This is the general purpose of Regular Warzone matches and what they are meant to satisfy, for players to enjoy casually and pop in and out as they please. The clear failure and fault of Bioware here was that Ranked Warzones were meant for the more experienced, coordinated and elite of the player base, effectively giving the better players a court to compete, and leaving the average player a court to continue enjoying casual/normal competition. Although it has been said and rebuked before, I will say it again. As a community we need to cease all internal arguing and demand the following:

Cross Realm Function
Adequate Matchmaking
Split Queue Matching for Pugs and Premades.

No less. This holy trinity fixes most if not all problems the current system has, as well as manages to adequately fill any future problems either of these systems would produce on their own. Claiming Bioware does not have the resources, time, or money to do this, is plain and simply a cop out and not the answer. If we as a community want a competitive, fair, and attractive PvP environment that lures players in, instead of repelling them away, we need to push Bioware to facilitate this holy trinity.

I happen to be in an active and competent PvP guild, run premades close to 65-70% of the time but still like to queue outside the times when no one in guild and or my friends list is available; although I thoroughly enjoy PvP when I am met with a Pug Vs Premade match it is blatantly discouraging, frustrating and overall repelling to the Pug side (assuming the premade is not terrible and in full recruit themselves). When I am on the other side of the spectrum, the premade, I find these kind of games boring, fruitless and out of place. As a premade I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, as a premade, I will seldom if ever find this against a pug. As a pug, I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, I will seldom if ever find this against a premade.

DarthSabreth's Avatar


DarthSabreth
12.26.2012 , 02:54 AM | #1893
Quote: Originally Posted by P-Chan View Post
You know... Your ABSOLUTELY right... There ARE better players and worse players. However, to use your "park analogy", if you keep rubbing your wins into other peoples faces, then you will find only yourself to play with. You talk about long queues for Ranked. *** do you think is going to happen when all the "bads" you people complain of stop filling the queues and all your left with is the Pre-maders you would normally queue RWZs against... Then you get JUST as long of a wait time for PvP. Then you will B**** and Moan about No one queuing. When it will just be the peoples fault who refuse to want change. Most of the people I know I plain left the PvP in this game. I have myself. I got sick of having recruit gear and being farmed for kills. ****, on multiple occasions my group was being farmed at the spawn point. How in the HELL is that supposed to be fun? I don't care if I win or lose, as long as that loss came with a good game. But its getting harder and harder to get the Good Games Match ups. So people leave. Thats our only option, because if we suggest anything else, all we get is trolls. Like you. So like Ive said many times in this thread. Enjoy your Minimum 1-2 hour queue times. They are coming, and a lot sooner then you think.
very well put, these same so called pro pvpers claim its because of long rated que times but when we suggest that all 4 man premades to be sent to rated ques and also that there should be a cross server ques they are all up in arms about it. then they have the gall to claim we are bads because we dont like to be rolled. i would love to see them singing the same rainbow song if BW did pit them against other rateds by default.
"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" Rip .

UncelSam's Avatar


UncelSam
12.26.2012 , 06:50 AM | #1894
Its very serious and frustrating to see that theres not a single comment on this issue at all from Bioware.

Its bad for business, its bad for PR for the game and Bioware that they dont care or listen to their customers. Especillay now when they claim that they will lsiten to us.

We will keep spreading bad reputation about SWTOR/Bioware and its lack of balances in pvp until this issue is fixed.

Theres NO use in making customers upset and annoyed, especially now when Bioware/SWTOR struggles to survive. Better to make the bigger numbers happy than the few rotten premade runners, who dont dare to face real competition in facing other premades.

This really SUX of you Bioware!!

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.26.2012 , 08:44 AM | #1895
Quote: Originally Posted by UncelSam View Post
Its very serious and frustrating to see that theres not a single comment on this issue at all from Bioware.

Its bad for business, its bad for PR for the game and Bioware that they dont care or listen to their customers. Especillay now when they claim that they will lsiten to us.

We will keep spreading bad reputation about SWTOR/Bioware and its lack of balances in pvp until this issue is fixed.

Theres NO use in making customers upset and annoyed, especially now when Bioware/SWTOR struggles to survive. Better to make the bigger numbers happy than the few rotten premade runners, who dont dare to face real competition in facing other premades.

This really SUX of you Bioware!!
Just because they have not posted here (most likely due to the fact that it is 200 pages of whining from both sides for the most part) doesn't mean they haven't commented on the issue. No splitting queues, but there is a better matchmaking system in the works.
I have opinions and stuff

YaanaOhtar's Avatar


YaanaOhtar
12.26.2012 , 10:23 AM | #1896
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthRaika View Post
Taking these things into account you could see that the players in these gyms would divide up and look for good games. Most everyone wanted to win and would do what they could to win on the court the should play on but the really good players would not go play on the worst of the courts just so that they could be sure they would win.
Unfortunately the majority of premade or hardcore pvpers are not sporty players. They are mostly kids with the inferior complex so to fill the hole they need to stomp over on others and said that were skill.

DarthSabreth's Avatar


DarthSabreth
12.26.2012 , 03:53 PM | #1897
Quote: Originally Posted by LeonHawkeye View Post
Well said. Could not agree more. The fallacy in telling people to make friends and go form a pre-made of their own just needs to stop, it is not the way to fix the problem nor is it an acceptable solution for the vast majority of the game's population. The simple reality is the vast majority of our player base consists of casual, pug friendly players, these players tend to pop in and out and play the game as they please and/or their available play time allows. Most of these players are not hardcore nor have the resources that many of the more experienced and seasoned Premade players have; telling these players to play the game your way or get out, will not go over well for the overall health and population of the game, considering they comprise well over half the game's player base. This is the general purpose of Regular Warzone matches and what they are meant to satisfy, for players to enjoy casually and pop in and out as they please. The clear failure and fault of Bioware here was that Ranked Warzones were meant for the more experienced, coordinated and elite of the player base, effectively giving the better players a court to compete, and leaving the average player a court to continue enjoying casual/normal competition. Although it has been said and rebuked before, I will say it again. As a community we need to cease all internal arguing and demand the following:

Cross Realm Function
Adequate Matchmaking
Split Queue Matching for Pugs and Premades.

No less. This holy trinity fixes most if not all problems the current system has, as well as manages to adequately fill any future problems either of these systems would produce on their own. Claiming Bioware does not have the resources, time, or money to do this, is plain and simply a cop out and not the answer. If we as a community want a competitive, fair, and attractive PvP environment that lures players in, instead of repelling them away, we need to push Bioware to facilitate this holy trinity.

I happen to be in an active and competent PvP guild, run premades close to 65-70% of the time but still like to queue outside the times when no one in guild and or my friends list is available; although I thoroughly enjoy PvP when I am met with a Pug Vs Premade match it is blatantly discouraging, frustrating and overall repelling to the Pug side (assuming the premade is not terrible and in full recruit themselves). When I am on the other side of the spectrum, the premade, I find these kind of games boring, fruitless and out of place. As a premade I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, as a premade, I will seldom if ever find this against a pug. As a pug, I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, I will seldom if ever find this against a premade.
best post ever explaining the issue, premades are discouraging casual pvpers / F2Pers from queing up / buying unlocks for wz's
"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" Rip .

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.26.2012 , 04:13 PM | #1898
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSabreth View Post
best post ever explaining the issue, premades are discouraging casual pvpers / F2Pers from queing up / buying unlocks for wz's
Not to be overly harsh, but this is completely incorrect. The mindset of being a "casual" pvper is discouraging casual pvpers from queuing up. If you don't intend to spend time to understand your class, all of the classes you will face, work to get gear (and augment that gear), and use every tool in the game to win (stims, grenades, medpacks, etc.) then you can hardly complain about losing.

If you are just playing to have fun, then winning shouldn't matter. If winning matters, then you no longer fall in the category of casual and you need to take appropriate steps to achieve that goal. Grouping is one step in having a better chance to win in whatever queue you may be in, I suggest you take advantage of it.

It's not an advantage that cannot be overcome by a PUG, but it severely diminishes the chances of having terrible players on your team. As usual, what is being complained about in this thread has nothing to do with premades and is just a request for matchmaking in disguise. No one cares about premades as long as that group is on the same skill level as the PUG group. Having one pool of players will be a far better scenario than separate queues if BW is able to get a working matchmaking system in place.

I hope to one day see an argument against premades in this thread that actually centers around 4 people being grouped together rather than 4 people simply being better than them which could just as easily happen randomly.
I have opinions and stuff

YaanaOhtar's Avatar


YaanaOhtar
12.26.2012 , 06:10 PM | #1899
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
Not to be overly harsh, but this is completely incorrect. The mindset of being a "casual" pvper is discouraging casual pvpers from queuing up. If you don't intend to spend time to understand your class, all of the classes you will face, work to get gear (and augment that gear), and use every tool in the game to win (stims, grenades, medpacks, etc.) then you can hardly complain about losing.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
If you are just playing to have fun, then winning shouldn't matter. If winning matters, then you no longer fall in the category of casual and you need to take appropriate steps to achieve that goal. Grouping is one step in having a better chance to win in whatever queue you may be in, I suggest you take advantage of it.
So all you hard core pro pvper are only care about winning, but not the challenging ? So you making a group to stomp on new player ?

Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
It's not an advantage that cannot be overcome by a PUG, but it severely diminishes the chances of having terrible players on your team. As usual, what is being complained about in this thread has nothing to do with premades and is just a request for matchmaking in disguise. No one cares about premades as long as that group is on the same skill level as the PUG group. Having one pool of players will be a far better scenario than separate queues if BW is able to get a working matchmaking system in place.
Really ? tell me would you take a recruit gear ? If you don't dare to take a recruit gear in your premade then your argument is just hollow words. You would never take a recruit gear when PUG will have to take a recruit gear. Your team will have less chance to get a recruit gears compare to PUG. So if everone is making a premade and no one taking a recruit gear, We have team of recruit being match up against pro WH +aug premade. Well done idiot you just put and end to all new player in this game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I hope to one day see an argument against premades in this thread that actually centers around 4 people being grouped together rather than 4 people simply being better than them which could just as easily happen randomly.
May be all of premade like you, having trouble understanding. PUGs have to accept newplayer and train them, that is what none rank casual wz for. Premade dont accept newplayer - recruit gear, hp below 16k -, chose specific classes to join, you are not freaking better skill, the only thing you have is eliminate the newplayer in you group. And i said again, if people all make premade in casual WZ, the only left will be recruit gear with no where to compete against Full WH premade group. So try to think before you ask s.o to make premade group, it's stupid idea.

DarthSabreth's Avatar


DarthSabreth
12.26.2012 , 07:24 PM | #1900
Quote: Originally Posted by YaanaOhtar View Post
So all you hard core pro pvper are only care about winning, but not the challenging ? So you making a group to stomp on new player ?



Really ? tell me would you take a recruit gear ? If you don't dare to take a recruit gear in your premade then your argument is just hollow words. You would never take a recruit gear when PUG will have to take a recruit gear. Your team will have less chance to get a recruit gears compare to PUG. So if everone is making a premade and no one taking a recruit gear, We have team of recruit being match up against pro WH +aug premade. Well done idiot you just put and end to all new player in this game.



May be all of premade like you, having trouble understanding. PUGs have to accept newplayer and train them, that is what none rank casual wz for. Premade dont accept newplayer - recruit gear, hp below 16k -, chose specific classes to join, you are not freaking better skill, the only thing you have is eliminate the newplayer in you group. And i said again, if people all make premade in casual WZ, the only left will be recruit gear with no where to compete against Full WH premade group. So try to think before you ask s.o to make premade group, it's stupid idea.
Very well put, i was going to comment on some of his remarks but you did such a remarkable job all i will say is i totally agree
"I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire!" Rip .