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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
12.07.2012 , 02:07 PM | #1681
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
If only that were the case, I'd really have no complaint. But my experience on pub-side Harbinger is something close to 1 in 50 getting a premade on my side vs being in a complete (or nearly complete) pug group against at least 1 premade. It is rare for me to see even 3 people from the same guild in the solo queue during prime time.

I accept that other servers and factions may have better experiences, but I'm not really interested in re-rolling on another server or faction.
The Harbinger problem isn't a premade problem its a pub pug problem. I'm part of what is probably the best RWZ team on the server and our premades can't carry the pub Pugs to victory more than 40%? (less at prime time) of the time anymore. It isn't because we are constantly ending up against double imp premades, its because the imp pugs are significantly better than ours. We can run into an imp premade that we would beat 6-0 in rateds and end up losing 2-1 because our pugs are just that bad.

I do wonder how much of this thread is from pub posters on Harbinger since we are the largest server. Oh well. The answer is step up your game. 4 can't win a warzone pub side on Harbinger anymore, 5 still can, be that 5th and we'll love you for it.

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
12.07.2012 , 02:12 PM | #1682
Quote: Originally Posted by DeepFreese View Post
Coming from the Harbinger, I cannot see how this is the case. I know that I am consistently in a premade, because It is how I have fun with the game. I love my guildies, and my roommate is a competitive pvper with me. We always group. Most guilds group. Unranked isnt fun if you aren't grouping. And trust me, we aren't talking about strat in mumble. Pretty much the furthest thing from our minds. But, back to your point... The Harbinger is pretty well faction balanced, and about half our games we are running into premades of deadweight and covenant and goof troop. Which I find fantastic, I find it more fun. I just don't see how the harbinger could be faction imbalanced, I think we are fairly equal.

Edit: I think that you most likely notice more getting roflstomped by premades then you do having a premade to help you.
Creus I have to respectfully disagree. I think you probably aren't noticing that the imp win ratio has climbed so high because you get quite a few imp v imp matches, at least I know I do when I play my PT. During prime time the pubs can hardly win a match. I don't necessarily think anything needs to be done about it from a BW standpoint, but the pub pugs do need to step up their game (yes i'm aware the imps have some terrible pugs to, but its an epidemic for the pubs).

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
12.07.2012 , 02:22 PM | #1683
Quote: Originally Posted by DeepFreese View Post
About half our games we are running into premades of deadweight and covenant and goof troop. Which I find fantastic, I find it more fun. I just don't see how the harbinger could be faction imbalanced, I think we are fairly equal.

Edit: I think that you most likely notice more getting roflstomped by premades then you do having a premade to help you.
It was someone else that said Harbinger is likely faction imbalanced. I don't really know...but I doubt the imbalance is very severe overall, probably less than 5%. I expect PvP is a bit more unbalanced (in the imp favor), but not horrifically so, since pub v pub matches can still happen at 50.

And yeah, those Republic PvP guilds have some great groups, but I honestly rarely see them when solo queuing. Or if I do, it is 1 or 2 people from them. But I frequently see 4-6 players from Full Resolve, Aliens, and/or Yes on the imp side.

What I really suspect is a quirk in the matchmaking system as others have indicated in this thread, in that it somehow prefers to match premades against pugs. I don't have enough lvl 50 PvP experience when grouped with my guildies to say for certain, but on those rare nights, it sure seems like we were more likely to run into another premade on our side.

Anyway, it isn't just a "oh we lost to a premade" that makes me take notice. At the start of every match, I am looking at classes and stances to find a tank to pair with, or count healers, and I notice the lack of premades at that point. And I don't automatically exclaim "premade" just because I see 2 or 3 reds from one of those guilds, or because we've lost. But when I see a whole group of Full Resolve or Aliens at a heavily contested node, well, yeah, I assume they are a premade and in voice chat.

ShelvanUberwan's Avatar


ShelvanUberwan
12.07.2012 , 02:29 PM | #1684
Quote: Originally Posted by Ssfbistimg View Post
lol only thing killing regular warzones are the masses of bads.
Agree with this statement. Do your time, and L2P your class, and focus on the objective and you'll find that your experience in warzones despite the premades will be much more enjoyable.
May the force be with you....ALWAYS.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
12.07.2012 , 02:41 PM | #1685
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
I do wonder how much of this thread is from pub posters on Harbinger since we are the largest server. Oh well. The answer is step up your game. 4 can't win a warzone pub side on Harbinger anymore, 5 still can, be that 5th and we'll love you for it.
I will happily admit to my toons being below-average geared (~950 exp right now) and skilled, at least compared to your group. But I am improving on both. Kiting is still my weakness, especially on my slow-*** commando. My sage is a bit better, but still way too SQUISHY if I can't break LoS. Fortunately 1.6 should help me close the gear gap...and well, practice practice practice.

But I will agree with you about the general pub pug population. At the risk of going into off-topic rant mode, I've been PvPing for less than a month, and even I know:

- If you are defending, fight at the node/door, and don't take your eyes off it.
- If you are attacking a node, try to get the defenders to spread out and get out of position.
- Call out incomings before they attack. Use AoEs and stealth detections to make stealthers work for it!
- Use your knockbacks to clear the end zone and ramps in huttball. But don't hang out in these areas unless you want to help the red leaping monkeys score, or are a gunslinger. Try to control the middle. Or get in position for a forward pass. Or at the very least, group up on the ball carrier to protect/heal them.
- Focus the healers first, one at a time, stun/CC the rest.
EDIT, one more thing:
- If there are 6 greens and 2 reds at your defended node, 2-3 need to start moving to your other node right away, as it is about to come under heavy attack.

And for god sakes, stop deathmatching all over the damn place!

Asunasan's Avatar


Asunasan
12.07.2012 , 02:50 PM | #1686
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
I will happily admit to my toons being below-average geared (~950 exp right now) and skilled, at least compared to your group. But I am improving on both. Kiting is still my weakness, especially on my slow-*** commando. My sage is a bit better, but still way too SQUISHY if I can't break LoS. Fortunately 1.6 should help me close the gear gap...and well, practice practice practice.

But I will agree with you about the general pub pug population. At the risk of going into off-topic rant mode, I've been PvPing for less than a month, and even I know:

- If you are defending, fight at the node/door, and don't take your eyes off it.
- If you are attacking a node, try to get the defenders to spread out and get out of position.
- Call out incomings before they attack. Use AoEs and stealth detections to make stealthers work for it!
- Use your knockbacks to clear the end zone and ramps in huttball. But don't hang out in these areas unless you want to help the red leaping monkeys score, or are a gunslinger. Try to control the middle. Or get in position for a forward pass. Or at the very least, group up on the ball carrier to protect/heal them.
- Focus the healers first, one at a time, stun/CC the rest.

And for god sakes, stop deathmatching all over the damn place!
Especially when they can't even win those lol.

Anyway good to hear. As for the commando it sounds like you're already heals which is as much as can be asked since both dps trees are terrible. Heal mandos can end up being very solid though even if not optimal. As for the sage always know where your line of sight is. No reason to be more than 2-3 steps from it unless your team is whipping the other and you are just going in for a finisher. If its heals make sure you're bubble stun spec. Anyway it sounds like you aren't part of the problem (or at least won't be once you gear up a bit more) but keep up the early call outs and good objective play, eventually the problem will correct itself.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
12.07.2012 , 02:55 PM | #1687
Tried to do my daily. Run into my favorite (and by that I mean the one that I hate the most because they always try to field 2 4man teams in the same warzone) premade.

Civil War: Went left to cap our node with someone. Got jumped by 2 rage Juggs. 7.1k hit. 7.4k hit. Dead. Node lost. 30 seconds in the game they capped all 3 nodes. OMG L2P, you suck! Well what can you do on a character with 966 exp and rank 7 valor against 6 (!!!) Elite Warlords with rank 100 and better gear than God himself? Then people start quitting, match cannot backfill in time, ends prematurely with the enemy team holding all three nodes.

But hey, I got a medal!

Hutball: Waited 5 minutes just for good measure before queuing. No luck. Same ******* premade same ******** people. Let's see what they have: hybrid tankasins force speeding and force shrouding through the fire, sorcs pulling them up and down, juggs interceding left and right. 0-6 before you can blink. Quick and painful.

But hey, I got 2(!) medals this time!

Civil War: First one except people left when the enemy team started doing emotes to announce their names. Even before the match started people left, which resulted in a domino effect and warzone couldn't backfill in time. Lost again with all 3 nodes capped by the enemy.

I took solace in the fact that even in that short time I managed to toss an 5k heal on myself for a medal.

Voidstar: Different premade but same caliber. 4 Elite Warlords (I was almost rank 9 by this point). Attacked first and needless to say we were pretty much spawn point farmed, couldn't even get near the doors. About 2 minutes in the game they decided it's so much fun to add insult to injury and they started popping party bombs, party jawas, party instigators, laughing, dancing and typing "omg you suck so much" "omg I'm killing you in 2 general cooldowns" "you have no chance to survive make your time" etc. in /say You get the picture.

Their turn, there's a bomb on the door in less than 10 seconds, match ends. But because the first turn was so agonizingly slow, I somehow managed to get 4 damage related medals.

This by far the most horrible PvP experience I've had in a long time. Got 8 medals in four matches. At this rate, I'll celebrate the 2020 Olympics with my own Elite War Hero set. Neither can I see my weekly ever getting done.

Win or lose, I don't care as long as PvP is balanced and fun. But it's not fun anymore, it's so imbalanced and frustrating that I wanted to bash my head against wall, throw my keyboard out the window or just simply kick something really hard. Had to smoke a few cigarettes to calm down enough to be able to type this post.

Premades vs PuGs is out of control, it is ruining all the fun in PvP and you don't just have to put up with crushing defeats but have to also deal with the insults they do (/dance /laugh) and how they berate and belittle you in /say.
Say what you want but 6 Elite Warlords in WH/EWH gear don't have the right to be in the same warzone as 6 Recruit geared pugs. Rank 7 vs Rank 100, what a joke. Except it's not funny.

And I bet I'll get the usual L2P, make your own premade and whatnot ********, but how can you learn to play anything when you're dead before you get to do anything. How can you get better gear when you lose so quickly that you barely get comms. Don't expect the F2P to ever set foot in PvP again after such an experience.

Pretty soon there won't be PuGs vs Premades because all PuGs will just quit. And the premades will just move on to another MMO leaving SWTOR PvP dead.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
12.07.2012 , 03:01 PM | #1688
^^ I won't say learn to play. I will just say hang in there. Improved matchmaking is coming some day and losing in a video game is not the end of the world.

SomeJagoff's Avatar


SomeJagoff
12.07.2012 , 03:13 PM | #1689
lol wow 169 pages. Get to 1,000 and maybe bioware will do something. As for fighting against premades with only pugs, eh, it can suck, but not much you can do about it. Win some, lose some, if you can't handle losses, don't pvp. While being on a team with a premade usually means you're likely to win, it's not a certainty. I've been on teams with 3-4man premades with cookies/aliens/goof troop/covenant/etc. and thought, "cool, should be able to get my daily done in 2 matches." then ended up losing to random pugs, it's rare, of course, but it does happen from time to time. I mean, it's obviously an advantage that premades in voice chat have over random pugs, and while some may view that as unfair, doesn't really matter, because the developers have made clear they have no intention of getting rid of non-ranked 4man groups. lol, just be happy that for whatever reason, they refuse to allow 8man premades to group for non-ranked.

As for the most recent posts about the harbinger being imp biased in terms of wins, ever since the transfers, and then free to play on top of that, things have been pretty out of whack in terms of consistency. Last week, I got almost only wins on imp, like every day, only did the 2 matches for the daily, but still 2/2 wins close to every day. This week, since the reset on tuesday, played about 12 matches, 10 losses and 2 wins. I switch over to pub this morning, pick up the weekly and daily, 7 straight wins in a row. In those 10 imp losses, was on premades with Aliens, Yes, etc. but still lost. In those 7 wins, was mostly premades with covenant, but also a couple of complete pub pugs vs at least 1 imp premade (think it was ascendancy), but still won.

I think the main thing about pvp matches is that you should stay in the match, because it can always get turned around at the last minute, especially in stupid games like huttball, which is fun if you're a leaper, but pretty much sucks otherwise. Recently I've been in a ton of matches where within a few seconds, suddenly like more than half the team drops, then we get the warzone abortion message. One match was in the denova map, capped west, lost mid in a few seconds, then 6 people immediately dropped, then 6 more people joined, I just saw that and thought "what the hell?" I didn't check to see if it was a premade or not, so I can't say for sure, but losing 6 people a few seconds into a match? come on. Especially that map, where you can cap 1 node with 2% bunker health left, hold it, then win the match, can't even count the times that's happened.

So yeah, fighting against premades can suck, but it's not a for sure loss....unless you leave the match, then there's a 100% chance you won't win it.

PVP is a crapshoot, it's people vs other people, it's not going to be like running HM BT, which is exactly the same every single time you run it (especially if you run with guildies), easy, and predictable. There's always going to be a variation in pvp matches, even when you're with the same group of people in a pug or on a premade. For the people who think that eliminating premades will grant them an automatic win button for pvp, you're sorely mistaken. If you're a good player who knows their class well, even if you lose hard and get 3capped in a match, you should still be able to score well based on your role (top dmg/heals/protection/etc.) and get a decent amount of medals. For some reason, when people talk about premades ruining pvp, it seems as though they're talking about getting into a match, getting 3capped within 10 seconds, then getting 0 heals as a healer, 0 dmg as a dps, 0 protection as a tank, 0 medals, and getting completely facerolled. I've never been on a match like that (though, was in 1 ranked match once when the other team got 0 kills, that was sorta funny, but to be fair, they did get a lot of heals/protection/etc. plus, it was huttball, so kills don't matter anyway), more often than not, it's getting beat by a premade, then at the end it's like, 'well, we lost, but I got 600k heals. That's something.' or 'well, we lost, but I got 600k dmg.' that alone should net you the 8+ medals at least.

There's never going to be an automatic win for every match, and if that's what you want, you should probably stick to pve raiding with only your overgeared guildies that have cleared the exact same content 50 times, because fighting against predictable ai controlled bosses that usually have 1 strategy is as close to an automatic win as you're going to get.
Lightsabers, Force Choke, Force Lightning, Jedi Mind Tricks, what else could you want from an MMO? There may be other MMOs out there, but do they have Lightsabers?....Do They?

Once you're in the hole, what's a few more feet?

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.07.2012 , 03:14 PM | #1690
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Tried to do my daily. Run into my favorite (and by that I mean the one that I hate the most because they always try to field 2 4man teams in the same warzone) premade.
Quote snipped because it's long.

What I've said a million times in this thread and what you are describing in this thread are the same thing. Nothing in your post was related to the fact that they are a premade group. EVERYTHING you described is gear and skill based. At no point did you describe a point where their VOIP and superior coordination was overwhelming. At no point did you describe their ability to select a target and simultaneously focus that one person down.

If you met this team and it wasn't a premade group, would the outcome have been any different? Just because everyone is queuing solo doesn't mean that there will not be imbalances that occur.

The only solution that fixes everything in your post is a matchmaking system. It doesn't matter if the other people are grouped, geared, experienced, or whatever as long as the overall cumulative ability is equal. I'm happy to play in recruit gear against full war heroes if their skill and knowledge level are far below mine. The fight would probably be fairly equal.

The most important take away from what I am posting:
Eliminating premades from the queue only takes advantages away from an individual, it does not take them away altogether.

So one guild can't always ensure they have 4 war heroes on their team, but it doesn't change the fact that it will still happen. I'm not sure what more I can say to convince you that the exact situation you described would continue happening in solo queues, there would just be no way for anyone to mitigate their chances of it happening to them. True matchmaking is the only solution that will actually prevent the problem, not a divided queue.
I have opinions and stuff