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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

cycao's Avatar


cycao
12.06.2012 , 12:58 PM | #1621
Quote: Originally Posted by Theodulus View Post
I find it kind of strange that it's so hard to find 8 regular people for RWZ and maybe 2-4 substitutes. For some strange reasons I've joined PvE guilds on both factions even though I mostly PvP. There are some guys PvPing though and we have fun but their primary focus is end game raiding. The new NM mode is not forgiving but they never have trouble filling their ranks with competent people. They have a core of 8 players doing endgame raiding. They also have 4 extras with proper gear and ok skill that can sub in for endgame ops if required. They even kick out a regular raider in favor for an extra so they don't feel left out.

Is there a problem with PvP guilds attitude where you already have to be the best of the best to join? If you take in extras and train them you never let them join your RWZ team or what's the deal?

Note that this post may not be aimed at you since it seems you sub for other guilds. But you may shine some light on why these guilds you sub for have trouble filling their ranks.
Well our guild can have anywhere from 4-10 PvP players online on any given night. The issue is getting a proper group comp that works (2 tanks/healers and the dps) now we could probably run about every night but to drive a good point home is trying to get a core group going and then build off of that. We have struggled doing this for some time and only in the last few weeks have we named our core members and after that you can get your replacements.

What really makes a good rated team is one that plays together and has great communication when it comes to focus fire (IMO most important thing for ranked) and knowing what every ones strengths are. Shuffling players in and out of ranked every day its hard to get a team that flows together.

Trust me when I say it we try and get rateds going all the time and only with the right comp and more importantly the players will you stand to have any success against the best teams.

Theodulus's Avatar


Theodulus
12.06.2012 , 01:05 PM | #1622
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Well our guild can have anywhere from 4-10 PvP players online on any given night. The issue is getting a proper group comp that works (2 tanks/healers and the dps) now we could probably run about every night but to drive a good point home is trying to get a core group going and then build off of that. We have struggled doing this for some time and only in the last few weeks have we named our core members and after that you can get your replacements.

What really makes a good rated team is one that plays together and has great communication when it comes to focus fire (IMO most important thing for ranked) and knowing what every ones strengths are. Shuffling players in and out of ranked every day its hard to get a team that flows together.

Trust me when I say it we try and get rateds going all the time and only with the right comp and more importantly the players will you stand to have any success against the best teams.
Just wondered because composition and team work is very much important in endgame raiding too. It just seems that PvE guilds struggle less than PvP guild in finding competent players capable of team work.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.06.2012 , 01:08 PM | #1623
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliteAssasin View Post
Lol, sad but true :P Is it so hard to group up with 3 other people?
It is. You see these people have jobs, and families, and cats and dogs. All of which directly prohibit them from actively looking for people to PvP with.

If I only had 30 minutes a day to play Swtor, I would want to make very sure I won all those games too.

Of course if I only had 30 minutes, I probably wouldn't spend 2 hours a day on the forums, and if I did spend 2 hours a day on the forums, it would be the "guild recruitment" section of the server specific forums...but I digress. Or do I?
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.06.2012 , 01:11 PM | #1624
Quote: Originally Posted by Theodulus View Post
Just wondered because composition and team work is very much important in endgame raiding too. It just seems that PvE guilds struggle less than PvP guild in finding competent players capable of team work.
Tanks can control aggro in PVE. Kephess doesn't go a "Oooh! A Commando!" Makes a huge difference in the viability of certain classes.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.06.2012 , 01:13 PM | #1625
Quote: Originally Posted by Theodulus View Post
I find it kind of strange that it's so hard to find 8 regular people for RWZ and maybe 2-4 substitutes. For some strange reasons I've joined PvE guilds on both factions even though I mostly PvP. There are some guys PvPing though and we have fun but their primary focus is end game raiding. The new NM mode is not forgiving but they never have trouble filling their ranks with competent people. They have a core of 8 players doing endgame raiding. They also have 4 extras with proper gear and ok skill that can sub in for endgame ops if required. They even kick out a regular raider in favor for an extra so they don't feel left out.

Is there a problem with PvP guilds attitude where you already have to be the best of the best to join? If you take in extras and train them you never let them join your RWZ team or what's the deal?

Note that this post may not be aimed at you since it seems you sub for other guilds. But you may shine some light on why these guilds you sub for have trouble filling their ranks.
A few issues with your comparison:

1) The difficulty of encounters in PVE are at a set level. The best group may clear it faster, with more HP, etc, but the difficulty level for them isn't different than guilds that can't clear it at all. In PVP, the skill of your opponents isn't at one set level. There is no way to know if your regulars will make up for the lower skill of the subs.

2) Class composition isn't important for many PVE encounters. Pretty much as long as you don't have a DPS operative you're fine. Those that do matter are more along the lines of proper distribution of ranged and melee. In ranked PVP, you better have a carnage mara, you better have a bubble sorc, you better have an op healer, you better have a tanky sin, etc.

3) Gear takes longer to get in PVP. With the abundance of crafters for 63 level modification items and the abundance of black hole comms, it's not hard to find people in all augmented 61/63 gear. Skill can make up for a lack of gear in PVE by executing flawlessly on fight mechanics. PVP isn't quite as forgiving when the other team is BiS. PVE content can also be outgeared by some to make up for a lack of gear on another. In fact, since operations drop better gear than they are targeted for (have to be able to beat it to get the gear in the first place), after 1 or 2 clears you already outgear the difficulty. In PVP, the opponent always has the possibility to have the exact same gear as you do.

4) Ranked PVP requires strict coordination and focus firing. I'm not saying PVE doesn't, but you know your role and the fight isn't going to change from what it always is. Calling out targets and adapting to an opponent that thinks requires the whole team to be on the same page.

Can you win ranked warzones without everything I mentioned? Sure, but not against the best teams which is why many of the teams don't queue or at least don't queue without their usual teams.
I have opinions and stuff

Theodulus's Avatar


Theodulus
12.06.2012 , 01:19 PM | #1626
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
Tanks can control aggro in PVE. Kephess doesn't go a "Oooh! A Commando!" Makes a huge difference in the viability of certain classes.
I spat out my coffee in laughter while reading your post. Maybe a RWZ tactic would be to bring along a commando that attracts the flying monkeys. On a serious note though you as a guild could encourage players to roll a class that's wanted for RWZ. It has happened that the PvE guild I'm in wanted tanks, healers and dps of different flavor for the ops and they simply had a few people reroll for more options. Maybe it isn't viable today with the longer WH grind but with 1.6 an optimized WH player might be just as good to bring along as an EWH geared player.

cycao's Avatar


cycao
12.06.2012 , 01:27 PM | #1627
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
A few issues with your comparison:

1) The difficulty of encounters in PVE are at a set level. The best group may clear it faster, with more HP, etc, but the difficulty level for them isn't different than guilds that can't clear it at all. In PVP, the skill of your opponents isn't at one set level. There is no way to know if your regulars will make up for the lower skill of the subs.

2) Class composition isn't important for many PVE encounters. Pretty much as long as you don't have a DPS operative you're fine. Those that do matter are more along the lines of proper distribution of ranged and melee. In ranked PVP, you better have a carnage mara, you better have a bubble sorc, you better have an op healer, you better have a tanky sin, etc.

3) Gear takes longer to get in PVP. With the abundance of crafters for 63 level modification items and the abundance of black hole comms, it's not hard to find people in all augmented 61/63 gear. Skill can make up for a lack of gear in PVE by executing flawlessly on fight mechanics. PVP isn't quite as forgiving when the other team is BiS. PVE content can also be outgeared by some to make up for a lack of gear on another. In fact, since operations drop better gear than they are targeted for (have to be able to beat it to get the gear in the first place), after 1 or 2 clears you already outgear the difficulty. In PVP, the opponent always has the possibility to have the exact same gear as you do.

4) Ranked PVP requires strict coordination and focus firing. I'm not saying PVE doesn't, but you know your role and the fight isn't going to change from what it always is. Calling out targets and adapting to an opponent that thinks requires the whole team to be on the same page.

Can you win ranked warzones without everything I mentioned? Sure, but not against the best teams which is why many of the teams don't queue or at least don't queue without their usual teams.
You did a lot better describing why its hard to get 8 players for rated than I did.

Theodulus's Avatar


Theodulus
12.06.2012 , 01:31 PM | #1628
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
Can you win ranked warzones without everything I mentioned? Sure, but not against the best teams which is why many of the teams don't queue or at least don't queue without their usual teams.
See my previous post. Would it be viable to bring an optimized WH player that doesn't take too much effort to get in 1.6?

As for the group synergy my solution to that would be if Bioware let people do training matches against opponents of your liking. Without rewards of course to prevent win trading. That way you could get a feel for everyone in your ops and not half of it in normal warzones against opponents of varying quality.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
12.06.2012 , 01:31 PM | #1629
Quote: Originally Posted by Theodulus View Post
I spat out my coffee in laughter while reading your post. Maybe a RWZ tactic would be to bring along a commando that attracts the flying monkeys. On a serious note though you as a guild could encourage players to roll a class that's wanted for RWZ. It has happened that the PvE guild I'm in wanted tanks, healers and dps of different flavor for the ops and they simply had a few people reroll for more options. Maybe it isn't viable today with the longer WH grind but with 1.6 an optimized WH player might be just as good to bring along as an EWH geared player.
People do roll toons specifically for their viability in ranked. Still doesn't change the fact that there are fewer classes and specs that are viable for ranked, than there are that are viable for raids. Add to that, having the perfect comp doesn't mean anything if you don't have anyone queueing against you. When you think about it, getting ranked WZs working takes 2x as much work as getting a perfect 16 man group for NiMEC (when 8 of the people aren't in your guild), and people only try do that once a week... And even if you do get all those pieces together, the same 2 teams don't want to face each other 10x in a row. Thus the presence of premades in non-ranked WZs....
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
12.06.2012 , 01:37 PM | #1630
Quote: Originally Posted by Theodulus View Post
See my previous post. Would it be viable to bring an optimized WH player that doesn't take too much effort to get in 1.6?

As for the group synergy my solution to that would be if Bioware let people do training matches against opponents of your liking. Without rewards of course to prevent win trading. That way you could get a feel for everyone in your ops and not half of it in normal warzones against opponents of varying quality.
Bluntly, no. Maybe for the first week or two, but those top teams have their comms maxed and will be fully decked out by then. BiS within 3-4 weeks most likely.

I think everyone would like to see 8v8 training grounds tbh. No rewards, no problems. It could also allow us to setup some of our own tournaments....
I have opinions and stuff