Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Pvtcarnage's Avatar


Pvtcarnage
11.30.2012 , 04:15 AM | #1411
The following post will have a lot of quotes which will have links to said post at the end of each one.
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaRB View Post
lol.

common sense is a beautiful thing as well. i dont know about you, but when someone makes a thread about premades ruining WZs, the first thing that comes into my mind isnt... "oh, that guy must be talking about 4 friends in recruit gear queing together!! how dare he!!! time for me to school him that all premades are not equal".

Yes common sense indeed, many claim to have it but few seem to...........Lets just take a fast review of his one and only post here.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Less and less people are pvp'ing now, sometimes it takes 45-60 mins for a pop to happen.... I've noticed a trend on certain servers you get a few PvP guilds that do nothing but make up 4 man premades and ruin all the fun for people who just want jump into a quick warzone... What happens is you can go against a fully geared out premade who's on vent/mumble/team speak and they pretty much just own everyone...

Bioware you need to add a PUG only warzone option, this will level the playing field more and allow people to just have fun.... If not, less and less people are going to pvp due to frustration with the situation..
Was the first thing that came to my mind, but of course that's because he said it. Not sure where you get the whole all in recruit thing, I guess you just adding that in for flare or to some how imply I said he thought that. Yes all premade groups are not the same, but we know you think "most" are..well I'll just post what you think below, And I assure you he's in WH himself.,,,see below for that proof as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by MiaRB View Post
lol. maybe a few. but most like the ego boost from wrecking undergeared pugs. plus, they like to finish daily weekly quests fast vs pugs.
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
I've noticed that were a LOT more squishy since 1.3.... Huge difference in pvp from last night to today..... I'm literally being 2-3 shotted by marauders / sentinel (thats with full Battlemaster gear).... I think it's time to shelve my Gunslinger and start leveling up my sentinel..LINK
He posted that on 06.27.2012. But this is getting interesting, lets look further so I can maybe stop you from pulling other such shenanigans trying to spin your propaganda about what the OP truly means.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Yeah and I bet you are the same guys who go around saying how bored you are and there's nothing to do at end game....

This is a MULTIPLAYER game, meaning you play with other people... Here's a novel Idea, Why don't you guys learn to make a few new friends so you can do group content instead of turning this into a PURE solo player game...
LINK
Gee I think I can on board with that lol, but of course he meant this just for PvE content.
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Let me guess your a anti-social hermit whos afraid to leave his house to talk to anyone and you want your video games to be the same way....LINK
I've said similar about those who wish to not group in order to win and want their 1vs1 deathmatch in a team based objective game.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
True its a lot easier if everyone is on Vent or Mumble but it can be done without them, people just need to pay attention to whats going on, and if Bioware would add a few more visuals cues it would make it a bit easier for people who don't use voice programs..LINK
It's also true if you play with friends that they learn how to play together with little need of talking which is something hard to do when pugging with the typical players I run across because they seem to care only about there solo epeen prowess and how many points they get on the score board. Which is why I like to make a team when I can.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
To people wanting a gear check....

Simple answer is to join a guild and play with people you know, just because someone passes a gear check doesn't mean there any good.

Also even with the group finder I will still form my Pug OP groups using General Chat, that way I can see for myself what type of gear they have, they don't need to be all pimped out in Tionese gear to do Eternity Vault story mode, just like you don't need full Columi to do Hard Mode EV either...

The other issue I see with Group Finder will be needing specific classes to get pass certain bosses, for Example in KP you need a range tank and a melee tank for the Brother Bosses, you also need a Smuggler or Trooper healer to remove the debuff on the range tank (so you can't use two Sage/Sorc healers), if you don't have this odds are your going to get stuck on these type of bosses.
LINK

He sure seems to have no problem hand picking teams for PvE, but in PvP he's to good to do the same?


Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Maybe it's a generational thing but it seems we have a lot of players who sit around and say "Entertain Me, I'm Bored"

I know the low populations suck and not having a group finder sucks BUT for people who have a little imagination the game can be fun.... For example you can talk to the people who have stayed and try to get people to combine guilds in order to do OP runs and HM Flashpoints.... You can also hook up with the other faction and create open world PvP by agreeing on a time and planet to fight each other...
LINK

Just another example of his willingness to put effort in things he wants to have fun doing and surely has no problem telling other they should too.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Who cares.....

Besides this is like the 100th thread about this topic over the last several weeks..... It's simple don't like it then don't play..... When Bioware E-Mails you their survey you can state what you don't like about the game in that....
LINK
I could say that about other type threads repeated over and over around here but that would be insensitive and not really fair to the issue, would it?

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Well YOU don't get to decide what content Bioware offers or how they offer it. YOU do get to choose if you play the game or not or how you will play the game with the options Bioware gives you.

"" I want my HK-51 on my alts NOW and don't make me work for it ""..... QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ
"" I only play 2 hours a month so Bioware needs to design the game to cater to me "" QQ QQ QQ QQ

Ya i know your point....
LINK
He has a point there, thats what premades do.....They play with what BW gave them and used it to achieve the most fun for their time played. Does not mean they think the current situation is fine but means they understand what it takes to improve there quality of fun in the games current state.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Why would anyone have a big Ego about PvP on a PvE RP server?

Seriously if your into PvP you shouldn't even be on this server, you should be on a PvP server where you have a real test of one's skills... PvP'ing against casual PvP'ers is nothing to brag about.
LINK
Now that's just funny, I'm guessing he's on a PvE server and has some butt hurt over not finding easy kills on a PvE server as he figured he would.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
ya right, hardcore pvp'ers come here because they can't hack it on pvp servers.... The ONLY reason they come here is because they know they can slaughter the casual pvp'ers... Sorry but any PvP only guild that is on this server is a Joke, you want to be taken seriously then pvp on a PvP Server... You can come up with all the excuses you want but the PvP guilds on a PvE RP server are nothing but a joke... Nobody has any respect for them on this server....LINK
I was right he is on a PvE server and has some rage issues over PvPer's that can't hack it on a "real" pvp server kicking his butt. I play on a PvE server becuase my brother refuses to play on PvP servers and he got to choose what server type we were playing this game in since I made him play a PvP server last game. But I guarantee you there are some excellent PvP teams on PvE servers and have a sore bum to prove it

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Whatever makes you feel good about yourself....

As for cross server, I doubt they will have pvp servers matched up against pve servers.... Again these PvP only guilds on PvE servers are nothing but a joke, even if they did match up all the severs against each other these so called ""Hardcore PvP Guilds" on PvE servers will get face owned by the real pvp'ers.

Fighting against casual pvp'ers is not going to make you a better player, it will only gives you the illusion your great when the truth is far from that. But hey if these type of players like living in an illusion who am I to say otherwise..
LINK

Well i guess he sure does not want BW to add cross server ques lol it might get even harder with "real" PvPers in his que.


Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Less and Less thanks to a few PvP only guilds... All they do is run premades all day long face rolling all the casual PvP'ers on this server which is like 95% of the player base.... That way they can feel special about themselves owning casual pvp'ers in recruit gear...LINK
Gee pvp guilds which are 5% of server is face rolling the other 95% of the server, I wounder how they do that? But who knows maybe the "casuals" take turns queing one at a time and just never run into other "casuals"

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
I find my companion is usually a better tank then most players so I usually just pull her out if the tank bails, same with DPS and Healers... I wish Que would allow us to fill spots with our companions, would make the Que's go much fasterLINK
Sure seems to think highly of his skills, and not so much of his fellow pug mates. This is a bit Of a stretch and assuming on my part but I get the felling he does not group in pvp much due to not wanting to crush his epeen to only find out that he's still not all that great or maybe he has a attitude problem and would not gel well with others that like to play as a team and not blame all loses or short comings on anything but himself. I know I never ask that kind back to a group.

Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
I will agree PvP makes good PvE Healers as they gotta learn how to heal on the fly... But PvP makes poor DPS PvE players because they have a tendency to not play as a team and will usually pull mobs before the tank and not use their aggro dump skill during long fights making it that much harder for the tank...

PvP DPS players are used to being lone mavericks and have a hard time adjusting to PvE tactics...

PvP Tanks usually have issues keeping aggro in PvE or when the group is fighting several mobs at the same time they usually just concentrate on one mob and let their healers get killed by the other mobs...

I've had to kick several PvP players out of HM FP's because they kept wiping us with bone headed moves...
LINK
Gee I guess maybe he thinks PvPers are just not that good in general, no wonder why he get's mad about losing to them. And show me one decent PvP tank that just runs around in PvP paying attention to on player. I know on my tank I'm constantly peeling dps off healers, debuffing utilizing CC and other tools they have.
But I'm done for now, MiaRB I hope I helped you understand why reading is fundamental.

And for those of you that like That 70's Show I leave you with this

Edit : Yes I did not get into spit ques, will try to tomorrow









Yup yup yup
"Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them.
-Darth Bane

Individual's Avatar


Individual
11.30.2012 , 04:42 AM | #1412
Quote: Originally Posted by Monoth View Post
Less and less people are pvp'ing now, sometimes it takes 45-60 mins for a pop to happen.... I've noticed a trend on certain servers you get a few PvP guilds that do nothing but make up 4 man premades and ruin all the fun for people who just want jump into a quick warzone... What happens is you can go against a fully geared out premade who's on vent/mumble/team speak and they pretty much just own everyone...

Bioware you need to add a PUG only warzone option, this will level the playing field more and allow people to just have fun.... If not, less and less people are going to pvp due to frustration with the situation..
Get organized or stop palying. If you want to pvp then get your own premade. Reality check... If you had the option of going into a real battle between people you've been in a battle with before versus people you haven't been in battle with, which one would you choose. More than likely most everyone is going to pick the people they've been in a battle with before. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's because they know how the others think and react. The same goes for PVP! I don't know about you guys, but pvp is going to have winners and losers at the end of each round. I would rather que up with a group of people I play with all the time versus players I never played with before. Why, because I don't want to play with a team that is full of 12-15k hp sorcs. I want to win! Is something wrong with me not wanting to win?

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.30.2012 , 05:04 AM | #1413
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
No, it's a viable option to -play.-

The solo function provides a vital service. Those who don't have friends on can still play. Those who don't have a spot in the guild at the moment can still play. Those that just want a quick match or are feeling anti-social today can play. That is all the solo queue option is designed to do... allow people to -play- when (or if they don't want a group) they have no group.

Solo also servers for filling and backfilling.

Your character has the option to get naked, does it not? Yet do you believe playing without armor should be as viable to win as someone wearing their gear?

The game allows you to choose how you apply your talent points, but if you choose a 11/20/10 (fyi, a build that is just terrible) should it be as viable to win as the standard 31//10 builds?


The problem I feel people have, is the false assumption solo-centric is a viable playstyle (for winning), or that it should be. It isn't, it's the complete opposite of a "multiplayer" game. The option exists to not exclude the player who doesn't have a group, not because it should be a viable winning strategy.
Anything that allows people to -play- should be a viable means to allow them to -win-, MMO or not. Otherwise it's not an option really, other than saying "please play lambs for the premades to slaughter" and "You don't want to get slaughtered? Well, group up and slaughter those than didn't." But why does it have to be a slaughter in the first place is what I ask.

What's really interesting is that premade advocates are even unwilling to give solo queuers a simple option to turn off "match against premade enemy groups." Why, are you afraid that given the choice, no solo player would queue against groups? That given the choice, you wouldn't queue against premades if you played solo? Those people who actually left "match against premade enemy groups" on could backfill premade groups.

It seems very strange to me that all premaders preach that nobody should play solo and expect to win. And at the same time they actually WANT people to play solo, so they can beat them into the ground. If solo queue isn't a viable means to win, it simply shouldn't be in the game. As long as it IS in the game however, proper measures should be taken that those people who are thrown into a random group of 3 tanks and 5 DPS have a viable chance to win.

We can't judge people by double standards. We can't say that nobody should play solo if you want to win but I want you to play solo regardless, so that I can win. Going naked in a warzone goes against common sense. Going in with a useless build goes against common sense. But is going in with a random team goes against common sense in a multiplayer game? You say, yes, but I say it didn't in Guild Wars. It didn't in any of the FPS shooters that allow you not to play against entire clans. If it doesn't and didn't in other games, it doesn't go against common sense in Star Wars either.

As long as we have solo queue option, solo-centric should be a viable playstyle for winning. I'll accept your reasoning the moment they remove the solo queue option, but until then, I'm unwilling to believe that Bioware would give us a playstyle option that isn't viable.

Or humor me and name any sport that allows a team of 8 random amateurs compete against a premade national champion team.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.30.2012 , 05:23 AM | #1414
Quote: Originally Posted by Individual View Post
Get organized or stop palying. If you want to pvp then get your own premade. Reality check... If you had the option of going into a real battle between people you've been in a battle with before versus people you haven't been in battle with, which one would you choose. More than likely most everyone is going to pick the people they've been in a battle with before. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's because they know how the others think and react. The same goes for PVP! I don't know about you guys, but pvp is going to have winners and losers at the end of each round. I would rather que up with a group of people I play with all the time versus players I never played with before. Why, because I don't want to play with a team that is full of 12-15k hp sorcs. I want to win! Is something wrong with me not wanting to win?
Again, I'd accept the "get organized or stop playing reasoning" if there wasn't a solo only option. As it stands, it's "I get organized, you don't, so we stomp you and you'll like it." Team or leave would only work if teaming up was the only option to play.

There's nothing wrong with you wanting to win. You want to win. I want to win. Everyone wants to win. We all want to win. Everyone likes winning but everyone should accept a fair chance for both sides.

If you're queueing solo, you're given a limited variety of tools that you can use to win. You may have a healer, you may have a tank, you may not have any at all. It's random, luck-based an RNG number. If these are the rules of engagement and terms of combat for you these exact same rules should apply to the opposing team as well. If your team composition depends on a number, the enemy team's composition should be based on a number, as well.

If you're queueing as a group, you're given a much wider assortment of tools that greatly increases your chance to win. Tanks, pocket healers, 3rd party communication programs, guild crafting skills and whatnot. If you have access to these tools, your opposition should have access to these tools as well. If you have a carefully balanced, predetermined team composition, the opposing team should have one as well.

Shouting "team up or leave" won't solve anything because most people will do exactly that if they are forced to engage groups on uneven terms: leave. And last I checked we wanted people to stay and the player base to grow, not to shrink.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.30.2012 , 05:46 AM | #1415
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Anything that allows people to -play- should be a viable means to allow them to -win-, MMO or not. Otherwise it's not an option really, other than saying "please play lambs for the premades to slaughter" and "You don't want to get slaughtered? Well, group up and slaughter those than didn't." But why does it have to be a slaughter in the first place is what I ask.
Can you enter a flashpoint with less than 4? (yes btw...)

Can you enter a flashpoint with 4 dps? (yes)

Do you have the option to go naked? (yes)

Are any of these viable options to "win?" (no)

(On a side note, I'd like to point out matchmaking would increase a PuG/Solo players chance to win by matching them as closely as possible to others like them. You seem to think I advocate "no change" when I'm actually just advocating against "split queue's")

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
What's really interesting is that premade advocates are even unwilling to give solo queuers a simple option to turn off "match against premade enemy groups." Why, are you afraid that given the choice, no solo player would queue against groups? That given the choice, you wouldn't queue against premades if you played solo? Those people who actually left "match against premade enemy groups" on could backfill premade groups.
Because that button enables a player to basically choose a weaker form of PvP, for equal rewards. Secondly, -any- option that is a hard split to the pool has the exact same problem as a split queue.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
It seems very strange to me that all premaders preach that nobody should play solo and expect to win. And at the same time they actually WANT people to play solo, so they can beat them into the ground. If solo queue isn't a viable means to win, it simply shouldn't be in the game. As long as it IS in the game however, proper measures should be taken that those people who are thrown into a random group of 3 tanks and 5 DPS have a viable chance to win.
I don't want people to play solo, but I respect that sometimes people need to. It shouldn't be 100% of the time, and it certianly isn't a "playstyle," but it's a reality. I think people should be able to solo queue when they can not (or do not want to) group up, but they (as I do not) should not expect special treatment for it. We all get one playground.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
We can't judge people by double standards. We can't say that nobody should play solo if you want to win but I want you to play solo, so that I can win. Going naked in a warzone goes against common sense. Going in with a useless build goes against common sense. But is going in with a random team goes against common sense in a multiplayer game? You say, yes, but I say it didn't in Guild Wars. It didn't in any of the FPS shooters that allow you not to play against entire clans. If it doesn't and didn't in other games, it doesn't go against common sense in Star Wars either.
1) Haven't held anyone to a double standard. Second, we'll have to agree on common sense. I'd like to note Guild Wars (2, not sure about one) has a completely different kind of pvp system, and almost all modern FPS's do not have a "split queue" ... they have a matchmaking sytem (usually based on either a Win/Loss ratio or a Exp system.)

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
As long as we have solo queue option, solo-centric should be a viable playstyle for winning. I'll accept your reasoning the moment they remove the solo queue option, but until then, I'm unwilling to believe that Bioware would give us a playstyle option that isn't viable.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. =P though just to be nitpicky... you know it's called a "Playstyle" not a "Winstyle?"

Also, once again matchmaking will boost the solo option to be more viable, without the negatives of a split queue's logistical problems.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Or humor me and name any sport that allows a team of 8 random amateurs compete against a premade national champion team.
You mean name a sport that allows a team of 8 randoms to face a team of 4 pro's + 4 randoms? I do believe any "local" competition allows anyone to join, you just rarely see pro's come to your local spots. Not cause they're not allowed, they just have better things to do. Make ranked more accessible and (most of the) problem solved.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.30.2012 , 05:54 AM | #1416
Quote: Originally Posted by Ashaari View Post
An additional point that should be considered, and that couldnt be solved by 4 + 4 x 2 ranked queues, is the situation pre lvl 50.

With the influx of ftp players and the increased frequency of pre 50 pre-mades we run the risk of scaring away the very new players.

Yesterday I played several games against pre-mades (with voice comms - and yes I know that for sure, as I know the team well) and have noticed that there are many more over the last few weeks in the sub 50 bracket. As an experienced player with well geared characters at any level it is not a problem for me (especially as we won every match against them), but I do have some concerns that the new players, especially with a 5 game weekly limit, will just decide that they will not participate as they have no chance to compete at all.
There are many players who decide pvp is not for them due to bad experiences before they reach 50, entering the pool again at 50 with little experience would only confirm their worst fears, thus limiting the size of the playing population.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Since now with so many new players giving PVP a shot, it's time to make PVP appealing to them.

Even premade supporters can admit that getting into PVP(More so 50 bracket) is a tough road at the start. With only 5 matches to play a week, first impressions are paramount to keep them coming back.

So if my buddies and I decide to toss to the huttball back and forth to each other, while the score is 5-0, in our favor, well that isn't going to help the situation. The sad thing is, things like this are happening because most premades in this game don't want to preform on a higher competitive level. Hence why ranked pvp dishes out those "5 awesomeeverythingisgreatinranked matches" everyday.

Current system breaks communities. Not having fun? Well they will stop queueing. Hence even longer queue's.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.30.2012 , 06:02 AM | #1417
Quote: Originally Posted by Individual View Post
Get organized or stop palying. If you want to pvp then get your own premade. Reality check... If you had the option of going into a real battle between people you've been in a battle with before versus people you haven't been in battle with, which one would you choose. More than likely most everyone is going to pick the people they've been in a battle with before. Why do you think that is? Maybe it's because they know how the others think and react. The same goes for PVP! I don't know about you guys, but pvp is going to have winners and losers at the end of each round. I would rather que up with a group of people I play with all the time versus players I never played with before. Why, because I don't want to play with a team that is full of 12-15k hp sorcs. I want to win! Is something wrong with me not wanting to win?
Then join ranked because you are the reason why the competitive levels of this game are at the lowest point. You don't wanna group with 12-15k hp people, play ranked. It's simple.

Now let's hear the copy/paste reasons why ranked is just too "tough" to start up. You don't wanna group with 12-15k hp people, play ranked. It's simple.

cycao's Avatar


cycao
11.30.2012 , 07:51 AM | #1418
I was on a pug team last night in huttball and we beat a really good premade...I guess I'm the exception.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.30.2012 , 09:10 AM | #1419
A point to remember as everyone argues back and forth is that there is almost nobody that isn't advocating for some type of change. The real question is what the best solution to a problem that the PVP forum community is obviously vocal about.

The challenge I would put forth to those who are advocating a solo queue is to post the reasons why you feel it is the best solution. Once you have your list typed out, go through each one and ask yourself if the scenario that is causing issues currently, would still happen in a solo queue. Here are some examples:

1) Team composition is better for premades: True, they have the ability to pick who they queue with, but when team makeup is completely RNG, you will see composition imbalance in a solo queue just as often. The only thing you have eliminated is the advantage any specific person can have by selecting some of their team, not the advantage as a whole. I would also note the likelihood of utility roles in a solo queue will be extremely more limited (less likely to queue solo if you have to rely heavily on other players) and you will see that the side with 1 healer queuing will have a significant advantage.

2) Premades are overgeared and looking to stomp undergeared PUGs: True, this is the mindset of some people (the same ones ganking level 25s on Tatooine). These people will still queue up solo to do the same thing to undergeared players on their own. A solo queue isn't going to stop the less geared players from facing players who have spent almost a year gearing up a character. Once again, the solution of a solo queue only removes the team gear advantage from the individual, but since team makeup is still random, there will be better geared teams facing worse geared teams.

3) VOIP is a huge advantage: It can be, for full 8 man teams in rated. You still have 4 other people minimum on your team that you have to communicate with. They have to know not to break CC as well, they have to know which nodes are being attacked, and they have to know who to focus fire as well. There isn't any significant advantage to having 4 people on VOIP and 4 not compared to 8 without VOIP. Typing isn't impossible

TL;DR A solo queue will help prevent any one person from going into warzones with an advantage, but does not prevent the advantage from existing in the first place. (There are other reasons against a solo queue as well. For more information, see my published works in the other 140 some pages of this thread)
I have opinions and stuff

You could get free stuff with my referral link here

steaktrooper's Avatar


steaktrooper
11.30.2012 , 09:11 AM | #1420
All-right guys, I agree premades are ruining a lot of things. The reason that they do this though, is because not enough people queue for ranked. If they made cross-server ranked it would effectively solve the problem. I know this because I am guilty of running premades once or twice, because we couldn't get into ranked warzones. We would have preferred to be in ranked, but as they queue never popped we had no choice but to queue regular.
Lembar Romdoro Agenros Cavteff
Sith Covenant / Jedi Covenant @ The Harbinger