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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
10.20.2012 , 04:47 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
Queuing for a SOLO warzone should be what the name implies.

Random people thrown together on teams in similar gear. Is the WZ not sophisticated enough to match up similar players with similar gear and abilities?

I don't think they are that is why there are threads (endless) describing how someone is on a server where established teams are reaping the WZ comms while the others are basically locked out from getting any.
Once more, please answer what is stopping those "random" players from grouping up themselves?

Why discourage team play in a team centric PvP content? Frankly, I advice looking up Playing to Win by Sirlin before anyone argues against people taking advantage of how the game is played.

It's really no different then using a WZ pickup or Medpaks/Stims. Good players use them, bad players whine that good players are cheap/cheating.

Exgrunt's Avatar


Exgrunt
10.20.2012 , 04:58 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
Queuing for a SOLO warzone should be what the name implies.

Random people thrown together on teams in similar gear. Is the WZ not sophisticated enough to match up similar players with similar gear and abilities?

I don't think they are that is why there are threads (endless) describing how someone is on a server where established teams are reaping the WZ comms while the others are basically locked out from getting any.
dude everyone gets comms in unranked warzones. it is ridiculous to think they should discourage team play in an MMO. team up, or deal with facing premades. if you can't do that quit whining or stop doing warzones
Have fun Kill pubs

Veniras's Avatar


Veniras
10.20.2012 , 05:02 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Once more, please answer what is stopping those "random" players from grouping up themselves.
First off. Doing WZ'es is a team effort. You are 1 out of 8. So implying that solo queuing is antisocial is just wrong.

There are lots of reasons for wanting to pug a WZ
- You can just jump into one. No need to find/wait for "the right ppl" to come online too
- You have the freedom to unqueue/log off again at anytime without having explain anything.
- You get random teammates. This can be very fun and surprising experience. It's s rollercoaster of suprises instead of eating the "same old stale premade bread"
- You might play odd hours.
- Every WZ is random and new. The outcome is never a statistically given, as going up with/against certain premades can be.
- You might just not want to make social ties beyond meeting ppl in WZ'es. There is nowhere it is written that MMO's are meant for you to do everything in a group.

And several others I just can't remember right now.

Veniras's Avatar


Veniras
10.20.2012 , 05:06 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by Exgrunt View Post
if you can't do that quit whining or stop doing warzones
Which is what is going to happen. People will stop queing for WZ''es. Is that what you want?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
10.20.2012 , 05:15 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Veniras View Post
First off. Doing WZ'es is a team effort. You are 1 out of 8. So implying that solo queuing is antisocial is just wrong.

There are lots of reasons for wanting to pug a WZ
- You can just jump into one. No need to find/wait for "the right ppl" to come online too
- You have the freedom to unqueue/log off again at anytime without having explain anything.
- You get random teammates. This can be very fun and surprising experience. It's s rollercoaster of suprises instead of eating the "same old stale premade bread"
- You might play odd hours.
- Every WZ is random and new. The outcome is never a statistically given, as going up with/against certain premades can be.
- You might just not want to make social ties beyond meeting ppl in WZ'es. There is nowhere it is written that MMO's are meant for you to do everything in a group.

And several others I just can't remember right now.
1. It is very nice to jump in at any time, I agree. However, I also expect my chances of winning drop considerably, whether facing groups or other "randoms." In a game that relies on teamwork, any "solo" queueing has a much greater chance at failure.

2. Is it really hard to say "Alright peeps, I'm taking a break?" I did it just 30 minutes ago because i got the random itch to play Boarderlands 2.

3. The same experience can be had while groups of 4 can queue up. It isn't like a team of randoms never beats 4 friends playing together. Rather than see if the team of randoms can beat a tough opponent, you would rather your opponents be just as un-organized? I suppose some might consider this a decent reason, but I'd rather push myself (and my team) then demand my opponents suck more.

4. Every WZ can be different reguardless of the players. One premade tends to favor a 2/4/2 strategy? Give them hell and got 4/0/4, or 1/3/5, etc... Once again, it's a question of pushing yourself harder rather than asking your opponents suck more.

5. Massive Multiplayer Online.

Brool's Avatar


Brool
10.20.2012 , 05:45 PM | #136
ive personally stopped logging in, and when i do log in I dont pvp. Its not because of premades, its because I can't solo queue for ranked.
Phalanx
The Harbinger
We are playing a game of rock paper scissors.
Quit asking to nerf rock when you are obviously playing scissors.

Mournblood's Avatar


Mournblood
10.20.2012 , 05:53 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by Hairyzac View Post
Group and single queues ARE seperated. They are called normal or regular war zones, and ranked war zones. Sometimes you lose and sometimes you win. Get some friends if you don't like to lose sometimes. Nothing will change and BW needs to do nothing.

/THREAD

edit: Your guild refuses to do rankeds unless they have 16 online so it is against their own team? WOW. I understand now why you would think normal war zones are unbalanced do to you having to play with or against anyone other than your guildmates. /BOGGLE
No, they aren't. You can group up with 4 people and queue for regular WZs. This also enables two groups of four players each to synch queue and get into a regular WZ together. What I see most often on my server is two partial premades (two groups of 4) from two different guilds. While they aren't from the same guild, it is extremely rare to see any PUG be able to win against that. Just a single partial premade of 4 people can be a game changer in regular WZs against a pure PUG. But since I'm guessing you already knew that, I can only assume you're trying to be argumentative.

As for why we do Ranked against each other, when we're playing against each other it's not only great practice without the pressure of winning/losing, but also no one gets left out because we don't have to worry about class composition (other than making sure the teams are relatively even). If we were doing Ranked against a Republic team, we'd need to be very picky about which classes we bring in order to stack the team for the best chance of winning. This is one of the fundamental problems with Ranked WZs in that it encourages classism. Why bring two Sorc healers when one is enough and an Operative healer is far superior in terms of mobility? Why bring two Marauders when one with 80% Predation for the first cap is sufficient? And so on. We also don't need to worry about gear issues, such as bringing anyone who might not be full augmented WH+. Finally, given the non-existant match-making system in Ranked WZs, the practice we get against each other is not something we'd be able to benefit from when we're queued against a top ranked team who ends up farming us at spawn, which are typically the only teams that actually queue up for Ranked.

I've mentioned it in other posts, but the way RIFT handles their PvP queue is pretty good. Not only will a grouped queue not be placed against a solo queue thereby preventing premades of any size from playing against PUGs, but they also match by gear level using their Prestige rank (which functions exactly the same way as Valor does in this game). The way they support this queue system is with cross-server queues, which as I mentioned, Bioware is unable to do for some reason. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing in TOR anytime soon, if ever, hence why I suggested toward the end of my post that players don't queue solo in this game or avoid PvP altogether.

Gnoblesse's Avatar


Gnoblesse
10.20.2012 , 06:12 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Veniras View Post
- You get random teammates. This can be very fun and surprising experience. It's s rollercoaster of suprises instead of eating the "same old stale premade bread"
I'm supposed to eat my teammates? How come no one told me this before now?

Do I at least get a nice wine to go with them?

ACTroyan's Avatar


ACTroyan
10.20.2012 , 06:14 PM | #139
The problem is the matchmaking system, i think BW should have taken a note from a diff game called global agenda where they match people by their ranking, and ranking is done on regular matches as well as guild matches. That way if u go against guys with amazing gear they mostlikely have better rating and so you will get a few great geared guys to compensate as well.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
10.21.2012 , 07:19 AM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Here are some personal statistics over the past 3 days from solo pvp'ing on the Republic side of the Progenitor server. I used Recruit gear only at the start to see the incentive a new player will have. To see if he will keep playing pvp:

Played 38 matches over the course of 3 days:

Won: 4. Lost: 34.
Number of times queued against a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 23
Number of times queued with a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 2
Number of times lost against the Republic: 0
Number of times lost against the Empire: 34
Number of times won against the Republic: 4
Number of times won against the Empire: 0
Number of times grouped without a healer: 17
Number of times faced an enemy group without a healer: 1
Number of times faced an exceptional enemy group (4 or more players with War Hero title or above): 10
Number of times queued with an exceptional group (4 or more players with War Hero or above): 1
Number of times queued with an inadequate group (4 or more players in Recruit): 10
Number of deaths: stopped counting.

As you can see from this limited survery, queuing solo meant losing the overwhelming majority of the games (a ratio of 4-34), almost all of them against the Empire. I've been in 4 true PuGvsPuG matches and incidentally every single one of them was Rep vs Rep we won.

23 times ouf of 38 (all in Rep vs Imp) we faced three or more players from the same guild. On my team this happened twice but we lost those matches as well due to the fact that:

10 times out of 38 we had 4 or more people (!!!) in Recruit gear (myself included of course), whereas 10 out of 38 times we faced enemy groups where 4 or more people were sporting War Hero, Conqueror, Warlord etc. titles.

This was further compounded by the fact that 17 (!) out of 38 times our team did not have a healer. Only once was I in a match where I could not find an enemy healer to mark.

I did not exactly count how many times our group was utterly annihilated (0-6 huttball, 100-0% novare etc.) but there were a lot of instances where we could not hold a single node in Civil War. Coordination was ok, we always discussed tactics, 9 out of 10 times people called out inc but the general lack of healers AND the overall gear advantage enjoyed by the enemies AND the fact that 23 matches had 3 or 4 people from the same guild made sure that no amount of coordination would make a difference.

Look at the numbers and tell me why a new lvl50 would bother to play pvp again after this?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Facing premades more than half the time (23/38) was part of the reason we kept losing but not the only part. The drastic lack of healers wasn't helping either. And the fact that in almost every 3rd match or so we had 4 people in Recruit.

I haven't tried pvp as an Imperial yet. I'm curious to do some statistics when I hit 50 to see if it's easier to level up somewhat as an Imperial.

I've seen many opinions by many people (some say it's fine, the majority call for changes) but I think there is something very wrong with pvp if solo queuing means autoloss.
Here are the personal statistics from the last 3 days of PvP on the Progenitor server, this time as an Imperial. Again, began with Recruit gear to see if a new lvl50 player has enough incentive to keep playing pvp.

Played 38 matches over the course of 3 days:
Class played: Sniper (Marksmanship)

Won: 16. Lost: 22.
Number of times queued against a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 26
Number of times queued with a premade (3 or 4 people from the same guild): 24
Number of times played against the Republic: 6 (Won: 6; Lost: 0; Premades: 0)
Number of times played against the Empire: 32 (Won: 10; Lost: 22; Premades: 26)
Number of times faced an enemy group without a healer: 4 (Republic: 4; Empire: 0)
Number of times queued without a healer: 0
Number of times faced an exceptional enemy group (4 or more players with War Hero title or above): 24
Number of times queued with an exceptional group (4 or more players with War Hero or above): 21
Number of times queued with an inadequate group (4 or more players in Recruit): 0

As you can see, right away, the stats look a lot brighter while playing PvP as an Imperial on the Progenitor server. While I've stil lost more matches than I've won, I have actually had several matches whose outcomes were very close. The overall average win-lose was more even as an Imperial: 16-22 as opposed to 4-34 while playing a Pub character. We had a 100% win ratio against the Republic (6/6) but from the experience of my previous stats, these teams might very well have been true PuGs.

Just as a Rep player, the overwhelming majority of the matches were against the Empire. I had 6 matches against the Republic, whereas I played 32 against the Empire. The most popular warzone was Huttball, which popped 15 times.

Pre-made-wise the situation was actually quite balanced. We had a premade team (3 or 4 players from the same guild) on our warzone team 24 times and we faced a similar opposition 26 times. Even where my team did not have at least 3 people from the same guild, it always had at least 2, sometimes as many as 3 teams of 2 people. This also meant that we never got into a warzone as a "true" PuG.

Also, I'm proud to say that 38 out of 38 times our team had a healer! What is more, 30 times we had at least 2 healers! Unfortunately, our opposition was not so lucky healers-wise, as 4 out of 6 times their teams did not have a healer I could mark (unless they sent them to guard objectives but I guess even they wouldn't do that). This is more or less in line what I perceived as a "drastic lack of healers on the Rep side" in my previous statistics.

War Hero geared people were a very common sight fortunately both in premade teams and outside. Recruit players were actually a minority and this allowed many teams to effectively "carry" us to victory (although I like to think I've done what I could to contribute.) Only in one warzone did we have 3 Recruit geared players, never 4.

Conclusion: This is is a limited survey, so my conclusion is equally limited. On the Progenitor server, right now, Empire is definitely the faction to choose for PvP. It is more balanced, more diverse role-wise and the large number of premades on both your team and the enemy Imperial team can actually bring close and enjoyable matches. I have to admit I did feel a bit like a small fish watching the large sharks battling all around but at least our team had sharks as well instead of other small fish. This meant that I got far more commendations, more Valor levels and had more fun overall instead of the bitter frustration I had as a Rep player. It was a more rewarding experience in every way.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?