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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
11.25.2012 , 09:42 PM | #1201
Quote: Originally Posted by iSoldat View Post
There is no matchmaking in PVP in SWTOR and people who believe there is are fooling themselves. Even limited matchmaking wouldn't put 5 sages, 1 Commando healer, 1 vanguard and a gunslinger in a match and I have a screen shot to show you that it happens. All the sages had to do was overlap their circles and no amount of focused dps could dent them.

Image
There's only three sage healers in that screen shot. The other two are DPS Shadows with a VG, DPS Commando, and a DPS Gunslinger.

That's actually a pretty good spread of class roles.

Edit: And one of those sages spent a good bit of time DPSing.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.25.2012 , 09:42 PM | #1202
Quote: Originally Posted by mulzii View Post
Interesting perspective. I respectifully disagree though. I believe, that on average, a solo player is a BETTER player than a dedicated group player.

A group/premade only player tends to get 'lazy'. The rely on other classes/people to do well. They become reliant on the group and cannot function outside of the group. they need the coordinated ccs that a premade provides. Or the synergy of a predefined group. Thats why you see some of the 'elite' folks completely kick butt in premades, then they play a pug and they not play so well without a pocket healer, or vent communication, or stacked group of smashers or multiple cross healers. Then they log onto the forums and bemoan that premades should be the only option for pvp, cause they cannot compete on the same level in pugs that that can in premades.

IMHO, people who pug on a constant basis have to learn how to adapt on the fly to many different types of players, strategies, group makeup, etc. Anyone can excel in a dedicated premade. Its easy to pre-stack classes/healers/etc. The real skill is excelling in a group without healers, or without balanced classes. It takes skill to work as a group without vent, etc...
I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups.

Just as PuG'ing it means you are unlikely to receive support, it is just as likely your opponents will not. So while you may excel (in skill/gear/class) 1 vs 1 situations (or even 2 vs 1) you may never have to deal with (or deal with consistently) situations where your enemies are supporting each other. Likewise, you may not know what to do -when supported.- I've seen healers run away from their guard, their guardian not sticking near them, healers still trying to kite (and thus not healing) when their attackers are being peeled, and perhaps my favorite (as a healer) is the number of PuG's who run -away- from the healer. (Then wonder why they weren't healed.)

Quite frankly, Grouping vs. Not Grouping has nothing to do with -personal- skill, and bad players will not excel in groups. Groups don't make good players, good players make groups.

sunsu's Avatar


sunsu
11.25.2012 , 10:30 PM | #1203
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups.

Just as PuG'ing it means you are unlikely to receive support, it is just as likely your opponents will not. So while you may excel (in skill/gear/class) 1 vs 1 situations (or even 2 vs 1) you may never have to deal with (or deal with consistently) situations where your enemies are supporting each other. Likewise, you may not know what to do -when supported.- I've seen healers run away from their guard, their guardian not sticking near them, healers still trying to kite (and thus not healing) when their attackers are being peeled, and perhaps my favorite (as a healer) is the number of PuG's who run -away- from the healer. (Then wonder why they weren't healed.)

Quite frankly, Grouping vs. Not Grouping has nothing to do with -personal- skill, and bad players will not excel in groups. Groups don't make good players, good players make groups.
So basically what youre saying is all good people play in groups. Then remove solo queue from pvp and auto matchmaking, only let premade teams pvp and see what your are left with.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.25.2012 , 10:40 PM | #1204
Quote: Originally Posted by sunsu View Post
So basically what youre saying is all good people play in groups. Then remove solo queue from pvp and auto matchmaking, only let premade teams pvp and see what your are left with.
*Rolls eyes* Read what you like, as you've obviously not read anything I've said previously. I'm not wasting my time with drama queens.

SentinelDranoel's Avatar


SentinelDranoel
11.25.2012 , 10:52 PM | #1205
This is a old topic that has not been addressed. I will say what I always say. Premade should equal automatic ranked. I find pvp just fine without premade teams.
and the Force beat generic Swords and Magic anyday

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
11.25.2012 , 11:42 PM | #1206
Quote: Originally Posted by SentinelDranoel View Post
This is a old topic that has not been addressed. I will say what I always say. Premade should equal automatic ranked. I find pvp just fine without premade teams.
Think it depends. If it's a 4 man group, check the guild affiliation in your ops frame, because you've probably got one of your own (or, at least, a 2 man). I don't see that as a problem that needs to be addressed.

On the other hand, anyone declining the wz pop until they get 2 groups of 4, 8 queueing the pug bracket is either a frightened weakling or a griefer. Ideally, that would be impossible to do.

filipesantana's Avatar


filipesantana
11.26.2012 , 12:36 AM | #1207
Quote: Originally Posted by mulzii View Post
Interesting perspective. I respectifully disagree though. I believe, that on average, a solo player is a BETTER player than a dedicated group player.

A group/premade only player tends to get 'lazy'. The rely on other classes/people to do well. They become reliant on the group and cannot function outside of the group. they need the coordinated ccs that a premade provides. Or the synergy of a predefined group. Thats why you see some of the 'elite' folks completely kick butt in premades, then they play a pug and they not play so well without a pocket healer, or vent communication, or stacked group of smashers or multiple cross healers. Then they log onto the forums and bemoan that premades should be the only option for pvp, cause they cannot compete on the same level in pugs that that can in premades.

IMHO, people who pug on a constant basis have to learn how to adapt on the fly to many different types of players, strategies, group makeup, etc. Anyone can excel in a dedicated premade. Its easy to pre-stack classes/healers/etc. The real skill is excelling in a group without healers, or without balanced classes. It takes skill to work as a group without vent, etc...

well written,but i cant agree..

im not saying that what you said doesnt EVER happen...im jsut saying i believe its not the rule.. let me explain..

Real premades usualy require you to be on par with your skills..use comunication efectively and have extended knowledge of the game(mechanics classes etc)..so its not ANY player that will succeed in the premade..i have kicked players, and seen players getting kicked because they are bad..because they cant SEE whats going on besides their tunnel vision(pretty comon for the average solo player)..they overlap ccs...they dont focus interrupt...they dotn swap fast enough..they dont comunicate..call for guards..healings....so, no its not ANY player that can succeed in a good premade.

now lets "reverse engeneer" your description of the solo player performance...

a solo player can only do what you saaid if he is actualy fighting another group of "solo" players that have zero coordination and pretty much average to no skill....If he si fighting agaisnt a coordinated skilled team he WONT shine by himself..it jsut wont happen.

I have played alot of rated pvp in diferent online games...succeeded in soem achieveing higehr then average ratings and i can tell you that at higher levels of play, apart form the ocasional inspired moment, solo hero performances are pretty rare, because people work in a team..for the team..and ANY good team will allways be better then one good solo player no matter what..Team synergie depends on individual skill being adapted to the team "playstyle..or rythym".


So, a good solo player wont ever do anythign special in a warzone if he is going agaisnt a TEAM of equally skilled palyer that happen to BE in a TEAM.

Obviously you get lwoer than average peopel that play with their friends and make premades that can even lose to pugs...but REAL premades..formed and handpicked to achieve wins(and that requires you to have good players in it) wont ever loose...no matter how good a solo player might be, he wont ever carry a whole team.


(sorry for my english)

HaLeX's Avatar


HaLeX
11.26.2012 , 01:33 AM | #1208
""""""I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups."""""""

You can be the best player in the world and if you solo pug you will not win more than 50% of your games. So this is really not true. Now that hypothetical best player will, however, still put up amazing stats in the most difficult situations but he will still lose more than he wins. (something I cannot do, but I'm not a great player). The fact is there are great players who solo and even more great players who are in hardcore pvp guilds. And both of you make valid points.

EA how long will it be before you respond to this thread? I've seen official responses to other rather mundane issues, yet here you have nothing to say. This makes me think nothing is going to change since they are ducking this issue. Developer response please. You responded to the nerf bubble boy thread, but not here.

alexzk's Avatar


alexzk
11.26.2012 , 01:38 AM | #1209
Lies again :/ that wall of text is about individual and not about premades/solos.

I had "tunnel vision" for about 2 months. Now I see full fight picture. I know when enemy will switch capping point. I know when they hide into walls trying to cap etc. And I see others dont know that. Well, just a newbies. They will learn. Usually "stop fighting, play the ball" helps immediatlly. Such a words improves match very often.

But premades are harder to beat because they use outside game resources, like Vent. While I do 2nd strike (3 secs) on solo guardian there are 3 jumpers incoming into me. It's imposssible to repeat by PuGs using only inside-game tools. That's why premades always have advance even worse geared. I saw matches where PuGs made 400k+ each dmg and premades barelly 200k but won.

And as somebody said above - i'm introvert. I don't have even working phone, it's turned off and I use it only to make outgoing urgent calls. So I don't use any voice programs and wanna some fair fights where others will not use it too.
Also don't forget about disabled guys, who can't hear for example.

Any way, premades and solos should be split.
P.S. There are other games where u're forced "be a team", when you can't have rewards or even queue solo. Or 1 solo per day. In such games you could be right about teams. But swtor is not completely team-game. It allows alot of solo, so let it be fair.
There is no ignorance - there is knowledge.

filipesantana's Avatar


filipesantana
11.26.2012 , 03:07 AM | #1210
Quote: Originally Posted by alexzk View Post
Lies again :/ that wall of text is about individual and not about premades/solos.

I had "tunnel vision" for about 2 months. Now I see full fight picture. I know when enemy will switch capping point. I know when they hide into walls trying to cap etc. And I see others dont know that. Well, just a newbies. They will learn. Usually "stop fighting, play the ball" helps immediatlly. Such a words improves match very often.

But premades are harder to beat because they use outside game resources, like Vent. While I do 2nd strike (3 secs) on solo guardian there are 3 jumpers incoming into me. It's imposssible to repeat by PuGs using only inside-game tools. That's why premades always have advance even worse geared. I saw matches where PuGs made 400k+ each dmg and premades barelly 200k but won.

And as somebody said above - i'm introvert. I don't have even working phone, it's turned off and I use it only to make outgoing urgent calls. So I don't use any voice programs and wanna some fair fights where others will not use it too.
Also don't forget about disabled guys, who can't hear for example.

Any way, premades and solos should be split.
P.S. There are other games where u're forced "be a team", when you can't have rewards or even queue solo. Or 1 solo per day. In such games you could be right about teams. But swtor is not completely team-game. It allows alot of solo, so let it be fair.
without wanting to be an ******e....^ this is a perfect example on how "good" the majority of solo players are....

im glad u are not tunnel visioning anymore...

but still,

damage done?not...relevant...at all...coordinated cc > damage any day.......thats why you see premades win with way less damage, because, not like the solos., they dont go for max damage and medals...they go for the win.

also "....it allows alot of solo"...where? please name one warzone when you can win solo...like..you agaisnt 8....1 vs 8...because thats the only way you will showcase that there is "solo" play in 8 MAN warzones..

about being an introvert or disabled, im sorry but games are made for the masses, and even being really unfair, the game cant be adapted to minorities...(its a matter of money for the developers..)