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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.20.2012 , 11:00 PM | #1041
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Also, please note the death of PvP in the above example (PuG's Stop Playing due to...) comes from the PuG's giving up first, not the Premades. <.< Wouldn't that mean PuG's killed PvP?
No, It's like this Abraham Lincoln got shot in the head, Who's fault is it? Booth who pulled the trigger, maybe the gun or bullet?

Booth = premades
Gun = messed up PVP system
Bullet = PUG's
Lincoln = actual PVP

Premades use faulty system to dominate (Booth using a gun to get what he wants.) Eventually the majority of people will leave the game the majority are PUGS (The bullet leaves the gun because Booth pulled the trigger.) The eventuality of it is no more PVP for all because no one ques anymore. What once was good is no more because of a small group that wanted everything to be thier way (Booth (premade) wants it to be his way an no one elses because he doesn't like how the country is, he makes a plot gets a gun (the faulty PVP system) and uses it to his advantage. The bullet leaves the gun because Booth pulled the trigger forcing the bullet to leave (PUG's forced to leave because the PVP aspect is completely 1 sided and not worth playing.) Now Lincoln is dead because the minority got what they wanted (No more PUG's = longer Ques = the game bleeds out and dies.)

KiranK's Avatar


KiranK
11.20.2012 , 11:10 PM | #1042
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Also, please note the death of PvP in the above example (PuG's Stop Playing due to...) comes from the PuG's giving up first, not the Premades. <.< Wouldn't that mean PuG's killed PvP?
Classic "blame the victim" tactics. They're no more convincing here than they are anyone else. That's like blaming someone's head for getting hit with a bullet and not the one who fired it. Pure stupidity.
There's no QQing in baseball.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.20.2012 , 11:12 PM | #1043
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Backfilling and filling for incomplete premades (2-3 players.) That logistical problem is not fixed by split queue's, therefore your answer doesn't fix all problems.

(Notice, a proper matchmaking that matches based on -some- criteria be it win/loss ratio, valor rank, or maybe highest average gear level ever equipped, would avoid the above issue, while serving the same purpose of the split queue system.)
.
I'm of the opinion - and I realize I'm in the minority here - that there shouldn't be any back fill in WZs. furthermore, if there's more than a 2 player difference in the numbers, then the WZ will automatically shutdown. here's my rationale:
  • you're never going to stop ppl from dropping for w/e reason - no penalties are gong to work. they never do, and they punish ppl for dcs.
  • the person who back fills usually gets thrown into a bad situation, and he's not happy about it. he might just leave asap, which only hurts his team more and prevents/delays a shutdown
  • if i'm on the team getting throttled, rather than a revolving door of back fills, I'd rather the WZ just end so I can get into a competitive wz

valor is easily cheatable with legacy gear. so that's not anymore valid than gear while queueing. probably less so. not sure how to make a criteria outside of wins/losses.
Krackerjack/Deinon/Antiphon
JC -- Harb -- TEH

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 11:38 PM | #1044
Quote: Originally Posted by KiranK View Post
Classic "blame the victim" tactics. They're no more convincing here than they are anyone else. That's like blaming someone's head for getting hit with a bullet and not the one who fired it. Pure stupidity.
Nice, ignored all the other arguments I made and focused on the one off-hand comment. ^_^ you would do well in American politics.

As for blaming the victim, we're not talking about women who get *****, or people who get mugged walking down the street, or the husband who get's killed by his wife for cheating on her.

We are talking about people playing a game, who lose mainly due to a lack of effort (wether you like it or not, grinding, teaming, and "skill" are all measures of effort) and then give up.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 11:50 PM | #1045
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I'm of the opinion - and I realize I'm in the minority here - that there shouldn't be any back fill in WZs. furthermore, if there's more than a 2 player difference in the numbers, then the WZ will automatically shutdown. here's my rationale:
  • you're never going to stop ppl from dropping for w/e reason - no penalties are gong to work. they never do, and they punish ppl for dcs.
  • the person who back fills usually gets thrown into a bad situation, and he's not happy about it. he might just leave asap, which only hurts his team more and prevents/delays a shutdown
  • if i'm on the team getting throttled, rather than a revolving door of back fills, I'd rather the WZ just end so I can get into a competitive wz

valor is easily cheatable with legacy gear. so that's not anymore valid than gear while queueing. probably less so. not sure how to make a criteria outside of wins/losses.
We'll agree to disagree on the issue of backfill.

I said Valor rank as an example, which would be more fair then the current first 16 people in queue fight it out. I think either a win/loss ratio like ranked (just invisible) or... I think the matching should be based on the highest average gear level you've ever equipped. So if a person equips Full WH, they can't trick the system by wearing recruit, it will assume they have Full WH and try to match a person based on Full WH.

PvE gear might be an issue there, though it could either be wighed differently, or itcould be assumed Rakata is only slightly inferior to BM, BH is slightly inferior to WH, and Dreadguard... well that's Dreadguard.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.21.2012 , 12:14 AM | #1046
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
We are talking about people playing a game, who lose mainly due to a lack of effort (wether you like it or not, grinding, teaming, and "skill" are all measures of effort) and then give up.
Lack of effort isn't always the case, i do agree there are some sloths on the game. They are on both sides though. The PUGer that expects everything to be given to him and when he gets into a match goes to node and sits on it never moving and rakes in the comms. Then you have the premader guy has absoulutly no skill but hides behind the rest of his group awith 2 healers healing him thinks he is a God among men, putting forth no effort by leeching from his team.

My first Char hit level 50 and immediately I saved up enough comms to get all the BM visable gear and put augments into it all. I play smart and do what I can to better whatever class I am playing. I am constently checking out builds for my classes and seeing how other people play to see if I can learn something new. I however tend to lose a lot more then I win. It's not because I am a horrible player and it's not always because I am paired with horrible players. It's That i get outclassed when it comes to my PUG team VS the premade team. It's like any sport you can have a star player but it doesn't matter if the rest of the team is crap. (not saying I am the best of the best, far from it but I take pride in that I am good and get commented on it.) But to get in a decent premade isn't easy as you all make it out to be especially if you have only been playing for 2 months why you may be asking because most premades/guilds are set in how they are and you have to meet their criteria.

1. You aren't the right AC
2. You don't have the Gear
3. We already got our people.
4. You are a commando.

So I lose and drive on doing solo ques and maybe someday I will catch up with the "requirements" but it has nothing to do with lack of effort. has to do with elites being elites and wanting to keep it that way.

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.21.2012 , 12:27 AM | #1047
Lets get rational please.

Do you believe the current system will help sustain and grow a healthy pvp population?

Do you believe that the majority of people who have entered pvp matches are rather unhappy with the current system and that this could be one reason for lost money?

Do you believe at least a decent portion of their problems relate to getting destroyed?

If you answered these ...no, yes, yes then we need to do something to fix people getting stomped constantly.

The options are solo q or premade matching as far as I can see (open to suggestions).

Solo q will only work with cross server. Cross server I'm sure BW would love to do but for some reason can't (money/time/people/ability? idk and neither do you).

Premade matching is all that I see that is left.

Look I'm open to other suggestions as I love pvp and I love star wars but I don't LOGICALLY see another way.

I never said this is perfect but this is how the world works. Suck it up and help fix the game.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.21.2012 , 01:00 AM | #1048
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
1. You aren't the right AC
2. You don't have the Gear
3. We already got our people.
4. You are a commando.

So I lose and drive on doing solo ques and maybe someday I will catch up with the "requirements" but it has nothing to do with lack of effort. has to do with elites being elites and wanting to keep it that way.
1. I am a Commando (Dps or Heals as needed, Grinded the WH being DPS)
2. I was Premading (and PuG'ing) since recruit. I managed it by being in a guild (leveled in it) and asking "Anyone for a group?
3. Sometimes there isn't a spot. Guild Groups atleast have a little loyalty to give you a spot over friends (sometimes.)
4. See 1. I am a Commando.

I do not mean that you in particular are "lazy" and I'm sure you put a good effort in while fighting, but there is -more- effort you can put in, and I'm sure you know it. The point I'm making is that we're not talking about victims here. PuG's are not victims. They are willing combatants (no one forced them to queue for pvp) and if they quit because the competition is too hard, then the fault for dying queue times can just as easily (if not more) rest on them, as it can on "overpowered" premaders.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.21.2012 , 01:16 AM | #1049
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
1. I am a Commando (Dps or Heals as needed, Grinded the WH being DPS)
2. I was Premading (and PuG'ing) since recruit. I managed it by being in a guild (leveled in it) and asking "Anyone for a group?
3. Sometimes there isn't a spot. Guild Groups atleast have a little loyalty to give you a spot over friends (sometimes.)
4. See 1. I am a Commando.

I do not mean that you in particular are "lazy" and I'm sure you put a good effort in while fighting, but there is -more- effort you can put in, and I'm sure you know it. The point I'm making is that we're not talking about victims here. PuG's are not victims. They are willing combatants (no one forced them to queue for pvp) and if they quit because the competition is too hard, then the fault for dying queue times can just as easily (if not more) rest on them, as it can on "overpowered" premaders.
It's always "you can do more" everyone can always "do more" so that is a lousy excuse. Your right no one forces me to que. it's either that or quit. what would you like for me to do? hurt the que or continue to get smoked. Now imagine that on a larger scale. The reasons I listed are completely valid as I see it in general all the time "looking for WELL GEARED players for a group." I don't complain about anyone being OP or boo hoo this and that I simple say some people do not have the option for whatever reason. This thread wouldn' be this long if there wasnt a problem and everyone was happy.

I am curious as to how long you have been playing because I get the feeling you have been around for awhile back when everyone one was trying to make guilds and get people to join them.those times have passed the only guilds that form up are the random person that asks for people to join just so they can have a guild tag then they boot everyone or the established that want nothing to do with you unless you are topish teir.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.21.2012 , 02:58 AM | #1050
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
It's always "you can do more" everyone can always "do more" so that is a lousy excuse. Your right no one forces me to que. it's either that or quit. what would you like for me to do? hurt the que or continue to get smoked. Now imagine that on a larger scale.
Yes, there is the "you can always do more." Yet look at the average "successful" match as described by those pushing for a split queue. It is a premade with generally good composition, decent players and decent gear (and voice chat).

Of those 4 things, what can a solo queue change about their "playstyle" to be more "successful?"

Voice chat isn't available to all so that's out (I've noted this is using 3rd party software for an advantage). Gear comms with time, so while people who win more get gear faster, any "play style" will eventually get good gear.

So then you have decent players, and good composition. Self improvement is something that every one can work on. So the only thing left that you can do, and it's a small step... is class compositon. Coming down to once again, the best and easiest way to improve your chances is to fill your friendslist or guild list, and draw upon fellow players to form groups.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
The reasons I listed are completely valid as I see it in general all the time "looking for WELL GEARED players for a group." I don't complain about anyone being OP or boo hoo this and that I simple say some people do not have the option for whatever reason. This thread wouldn' be this long if there wasnt a problem and everyone was happy.
Two things here:

Forming groups and building community is more tan just spamming in chat for 3 well geared players. It's leveling in a guild, adding good players you see to your friendslist, and at some point just sending one tiny whisper. "Hey, I got an hour, wanna pvp together?" Maybe it's a no, maybe it's a yes, maybe it's "We're full" but whatever it is, next time they have a spot open maybe they'll think of you.

Second thing:

I haven't said there -isn't- a problem, but the problem can't even be decided upon, nor can the solution. Some say it's premades, some say it's pugs, some say it's gear, some say it's class imbalance, some say it's al Jar-Jar's fault. Personally, I think the problem is many-fold (combination of gear, skill, and effort) and the answer is compitent matchmaking based on some criteria.

Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
I am curious as to how long you have been playing because I get the feeling you have been around for awhile back when everyone one was trying to make guilds and get people to join them.those times have passed the only guilds that form up are the random person that asks for people to join just so they can have a guild tag then they boot everyone or the established that want nothing to do with you unless you are topish teir.
I played at launch, my first 50 was about a week after they split the 50's from the Pre-50's. I leveled 3 toons (Merc, Sin, Sniper) to 50, and had each of them full champion, with my merc beginning to gather BM when 1.2 hit. Due to some friends, I moved to a new server and leveled a 4th 50 (sorc) before leaving shortly before 1.3

I returned somewhere after 1.4 I think and the server mergers. My friendlist had been wiped, as had my guilds. My guild has disbanded/left/moved and so I rolled a Commando. I leveled her until I joined a guild mid 30's. From there I researched the current configuration of PvP, saved my comms and prepared for level 50. Along the way I grouped with both guildies, friends of guildies, and people I'd added to my friendslist.

I hit 50 about 2 weeks before Mk2 recruit (so I received Mk1, doubly screwed) and began the WH grind, using Premades when I could, and PuG'ing (or partial premades) when I couldn't or when I didn't want to. My friendslist on my new main is about 25 names long with an average of 5 people on. I've also gone through 1 guild disband (most of us reformed) and 1 guild merger on this character, and we sit at between 4-8 guild members on most of the time.

I did most of my WH grind as a dps at the popular request of guildies/friends (I had many healer friends), and then because I enjoy healing, switched to mainly healing for both our occasional raid and PvP (with the hopes of being the designated Commando Healer in ranked.)

I've started to regear my imps now, though they all almost restarted at recruit mk1, without the benefit of 2000/3000 saved comms. I'm personally a little too lazy to fill out their friendslist/guild, and accept that I get bad teams often from not doing so. I've also taken an interest in raising an Operative for a friends Imp-side Guild (whom I will send some gear from my commando via legacy).

So I don't know why you've experienced something else, but in the time between 1.4 (and mergers) and 1.5 I've had no trouble being social and establishing myself back from nothing.