Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The obsolete class!


PPAlien's Avatar


PPAlien
10.17.2012 , 10:07 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by eventidephoenix View Post
I started off as a Sage DPS, now am healing, and my Shadow tank is on the way.

All I can say is this: We're an obsolete DPS class, but in terms of healing and tanking, we have some pretty neat tricks up our sleeves. Most shadow tanks and sage healers will agree with me on this
Maybe Sage dps which I'm not sure about because I don't play it, but shadow dps is not obsolete by any means. I don't see where people are getting this notion apart from maybe if they are playing in infiltration spec. Balance spec if played correctly parses very close to par with other classes. The only difference being it is one of the hardest to get timing right on everything.

Fallerup's Avatar


Fallerup
10.17.2012 , 10:36 PM | #32
Force in Balance
Istant

Force: 50
Cool down: 15s
Range: 30 meters

on top of that, this superb ability has an 8 meter radius.

and lets not discuss slowtime.

Shadow has the most TPS of all 3 tanks, Guardian has the lowest.

the only thing that a guardian wins is defensive CDs and damage taken (cause of the armor).

there is no freaking way to pull the aggro of a shadow tank that just remotely knows what he/she is doing. Guardian... very easy, just nuke hard.

between slow time and project with bombardment talent, the boss never takes his eyes off you.

Yes, you got nerfed with self healing, something you rightfully deserved (I play assassin in PvP btw. )

go whine somewhere else!

a Sage is the best PvE healer of the 3 without question.
Gagota Class: Arsenal Mercenary
Member Of
Dark Brotherhood
Server: Tomb Of Freedon nadd EU

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
10.17.2012 , 11:43 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallerup View Post
the only thing that a guardian wins is defensive CDs and damage taken (cause of the armor).
Actually, Shadows have the lowest damage taken (counting the self heals as a percent mitigation of known predictable incoming damage numbers). Guardians are number 2 (though all tank are within a +/-1 percentage point margin of error, so it doesn't really matter too terribly much). Also, the Shadow CDs are, from a purely numerical standpoint, better than the Guardian CDs. The Guardian CDs are nice, but they're on 3 min CDs compared to the 2 minutes that Shadows get. The only real advantage that Guardian CDs have over Shadow CDs is that they're blanket effect (they both apply to all varieties of attacks and damage) whereas the Shadow CDs are specific (Deflection is only m/r attacks and Resilience is only F/T attacks). As such, in well played hands, a Shadows CDs are going to be better because you can leverage the higher uptime and superior effects (Resilience trumps *everything* for sheer amazitude). It's impossible to leverage a longer CD to your own benefit.
Walls of Text? I *love* Walls of Text!
My New Class Idea
Shadow Class Rep - Suggest/Review Questions Here
Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

jayfoox's Avatar


jayfoox
10.18.2012 , 08:34 AM | #34
First of all.. as difficult as it is to empathize for those of us who's main language is English, we should appreciate that effort the OP to post in what is clearly not his first language! I am English and speak only one other language (rather badly i might add) i would have no chance of writing in Russian, Italian, Polish, Chinese so lets not jump on the OP for that (thanks Kitru for ONLY arguing the points the OP raised rather than the skill in English!).

From what i understand the key issues are about whether a shadow (of any spec) and a sage (of any spec) are viable AC. I am not much of a PVE'r but i can see the trend in PVP where guilds are using pure specs (mostly DPS sentinels, guardian tanks and healing sages / scoundrels) in order to compete in ranked matches where DPS is seen as the single most important PVP number followed by healing. If you look at two advanced classes of consular in this scenario then healing spec Sages fit right in (properly geared they have huge healing output). However Shadows are not looking so hot. There is a feeling when you speak to players that shadows in pure spec (tank / infil / balance) cannot DPS enough or be tanky enough in relation to other advanced classes. My personal opinion is while the "numbers" matter to some degree - the objective based nature of warzones mean that there is most definitely a place for the Shadow class either in pure or hybrid form based purely on its utility and versatility irrespective of what the numbers say at the end of a WZ.

At the end of the day, we are not in a world of 1 vs 1. The content aside from the levelling quests is highly geared towards group / team play so there is always room for a shadow or two

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
10.18.2012 , 09:11 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallerup View Post
Force in Balance
Istant

Force: 50
Cool down: 15s
Range: 30 meters

on top of that, this superb ability has an 8 meter radius.

and lets not discuss slowtime.

Shadow has the most TPS of all 3 tanks, Guardian has the lowest.

the only thing that a guardian wins is defensive CDs and damage taken (cause of the armor).

there is no freaking way to pull the aggro of a shadow tank that just remotely knows what he/she is doing. Guardian... very easy, just nuke hard.

between slow time and project with bombardment talent, the boss never takes his eyes off you.

Yes, you got nerfed with self healing, something you rightfully deserved (I play assassin in PvP btw. )

go whine somewhere else!

a Sage is the best PvE healer of the 3 without question.
"Force in Balance"
nice looking skill - if I'm 10-30 m from my target, I can cast 1500 dmg up to 3 player, if they are ranged they get me down till I reach them coz in this case I have no force pull. If they are melee, they just walk away, till all of my other skills are 4-10 m range. So yea, I have a 30m skill what adjust 10m ones : D

"Slow time"
Generating thread all tank can (Guardian Slash...)

"go whine somewhere else!"
I should go whine about an SWTOR class to my wife? Or maybe in the NATGEOs forum? Or what better place you know for it? Please share !

"a Sage is the best PvE healer of the 3 without question"
I have lvl 50 scoundrel and I have lvl 50 sage. With my Sage I would change my Salvation and Healing Trance to scoundrels Colto Cloud and Emergency Medpac + Emergent Emergencies any time , ) (lets say, upper hand would be critic heal or dmg)

Hiniba's Avatar


Hiniba
10.18.2012 , 11:17 PM | #36
I hate to help give this thread more attention but this is laughable. Shared with Trooper we are the only class you can do an entirely standard HM group from this class.
Shadow DPS=Great melee DPS (not sure how it compares with Sentinel but I've ran plenty of ops with good shadow dps and never felt they lacked, plus stealth utilities)
Shadow Tank=Great tank, aside from being able to stealth, as a tank I've seen them do as good as, if not better than vanguard/guardian.
For both shadow I'd consider them more ranged than Knights (with potency they have a 30m ability and can tank fairly effectively from 10m instead of 4m like Guardians) who have 1 30m ranged attack, 1 30m melee attack (essentially), and like 1-2 10m abilities.

Sage DPS: Great dps, comparable to commando. Not mobile, like all real ranged dps, and able to do solid single target and great AOE.
Sage Healer: Great healer, best, pretty much, for healing group damage. Not as mobile as scoundrels, but with force speed they can redeploy themselves much quicker than commandos.

Also in terms of armor: first off the base armor by itself isn't a huge difference in how much damage it reduces (I think it's a 10% increase going from light to heavy if you aren't like a tank or something) and Shadows, in tank stance, have comparable armor to Guardian and Vanguard tanks so that's moot.
Basically: Shadow Tank is essentially in heavy armor that looks light.
Shadow DPS: Is a bit squishy but not significantly more than other melee dps and they have a full agro dump (that works on bosses who do their own thing).
Sage (either role): Force armor baby. With high enough Willpower I'd take that over heavy armor any day, complete damage resistance basically (in PVE at least) that you can put on anyone/everyone. Granted it can only take so much damage but either you or your group is doing something wrong if you are taking too much damage. (based on first post, probably you).

Basically: you're wrong OP.
This base class can potentially do all 4 roles (Tank, Healer, RDPS, MDPS) and can do all 4 well.
"When all choices seem wrong, choose restraint."
-Yoda

Meepbot's Avatar


Meepbot
10.18.2012 , 11:26 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Throwing yourself at someone while screaming and waving a lightsaber is not a ranged attack.
^ Screw my old one, this is my new sig
The Shadeslayer Legacy |The Harbinger | No Guild
Bloo, 50 Sniper | Turtlestomper, 50 Merc | Beautiful-Ocean, 50 Jug | Arran, 50 Sin
Guiotine, 50 Sent | Popojoe, 50 Sage | Ericksson, 50 Scoundrel | Phoenix, 50 VG

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
10.19.2012 , 03:11 AM | #38
OMG, not a single person supported my opinion, that consular needs upgrade. Every one knows who plays this game, that knights/warriors are more effective in landing huge dmg till pvp/pve, where our class is lacking (when we will land 6K-8K critic? And I saw even 9K + in a vid not long ago. When we will be able to use HIPS + cc non-stop with our Shadow AC like operative? Or HIPS in WZ with a healing dot on us to return with full HP like scoundrel. I don't wanna compared Sage's channeling healing/dmg skills to the same tools what use other classes.... (commando need upgrade as well, but now its a consular thread)

So DOT - can be remove, not like the 4-6K critics
AOE - yes, we have the most and its good for disturbing in WZ, from other hand its just good to make WZ medals, you AOE a lot player for a little dmg/e what counts like a lot in medals, but in the end, they will put you behind the light wall to hear the sound of a goal, objective placed to your door....

1.5 is on the way, there will be new lvl cap with new skills, this is the moment when we can share our opinion what we miss from our favorite class. Devs watch the forum and what they see:
There is one poster with terrible English who wants some upgrade for consulars but ALL the rest of the player base, who player the class like a main, are absolute satisfied even if its lacking here and there...

From this Thread, we will get new skills like :
Dots and new stronger agro for Shadow, coz this is what the community likes. And maybe a little nerf to Sage's healing tree, because its quite clear, from your opinion in this thread, that now its over powered.
There won't be any new lvl cap after 1.5 for a year or two, you can be sure about this...

eventidephoenix's Avatar


eventidephoenix
10.19.2012 , 04:54 AM | #39
Uh uh, I absolutely agree with you that the Consular class has no place doing DPS. But then again, what are we talking about here? PvE or PvP?

For PvE, parses are already dangerously disturbing, and in reality the damage difference can be even greater. No, that doesn't make the class OBSOLETE, it just makes us very uncompetitive.

For PvP? There has been talk about this since 1.2 and it has never been "fixed" (hence I have stopped PvP-ing as a DPS Sage). I cannot say the same for Shadow, but I have seen some really good Shadow DPS-es around. I have never seen a good Sage DPS pulling off appropriately good damage. Once again, not obsolete, just very uncompetitive.

Apart from DPS, Sages are excellent healers, and Shadows are excellent tanks. I would even go as far as to argue that they are unrivalled (heh, maybe I'm just biased since most of my alts are Consulars).

anstalt's Avatar


anstalt
10.19.2012 , 06:07 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
OMG, not a single person supported my opinion, that consular needs upgrade.
Gonna have to stop you right there.

Just about everyone here has agreed that consulars, both sage and shadow, could do with a DPS buff to bring them to similar levels as sentinels and gunslingers.

However, none of us agree that consulars are obsolete. Consulars are extremely far from being obsolete. Sage healers are amazing in both pvp and pve. Shadow tanks are likewise amazing in pvp and pve. Sure, there are certain scenarios where another class has an advantage, but that is true of every single possible class in the game!

Even on the DPS front, consulars are in a good place. The hardest raids in the game require a minimum DPS to complete them, and consulars can EASILY reach this minimum DPS. That means they are not obsolete. With regards to survivability, we're not even that bad! If you take an infiltration shadow in to EC, they will take less damage than many of the people in there because they take 30% less AoE damage, and virtually all damage in EC HM is AoE.


So, unless you can come up with actual valid reasons as to why the consular, supposedly in all specs, is obsolete, I suggest you stop posting and rethink your position.
Anstalt - lvl 50 valor 81 Shadow Consular

Currently retired due to poor design decisions within the game that have killed its longevity. Get rid of Hickman before he ruins the game completely!