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The obsolete class!

Kitru's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 08:10 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
Trooper - incredible high armor rate(tank), shield enable, ranged, can roll hybrid - tank can have good dps, dps can have great defense, healer - 70% mobility till use heal skills, guard (tank)
]con - healer a bit lacking till the nerf, Vamguard needs support till his survivor skills lacking vs other (Adrenaline vs Guarded by the Force)[/quote]

Of what you've said here, only 2 of those traits really apply to Commandos (heal ranged). After the range nerfs to Assault, VGs really are a short range class (all they get is Hammer Shot, HiB, and a few others; pretty much everything they do requires them to be within 10m). You're vastly overstating the value of the heavy armor as well: without a tank stance, heavy armor doesn't really mean much, especially since both VGs and Commandos pay for their heavy armor by having vastly reduced utility compared to the lighter armored classes.

Also, saying the class is "shield enabled" is like saying "has a tank spec". No one in their right mind other than a tank actually uses a shield and, even then, only if they're using gear with tank stats on it. A shield without the relevant stats and spec is pretty much worthless.

Jedi Knight - incredible high armor rate(tank), shield enable, dual wield enable, ranged (lets don't be mislead by the saber in there hands , )), can roll hybrid, most DMG, best DPS, best mobility, best immunities , guard (tank), CC with dmg (best CC), best CC immunity, can hide - have to go class
con - no heal skills, boring to play
You really need to learn to differentiate between Guardians and Sentinels. Sentinels are in medium armor. Guardians are in heavy armor. Only Sentinels can dual wield (which is mechanically balanced against other weapon loadouts). The only ranged ability that Sentinels get is their leap (which is a gap closer). The only ranged abilities that Guardians get are Saber Throw (30 sec CD and craptastic damage) and their leap. The "best mobility, best immunities" you're referring to aren't available to Sentinels, since I'm assuming you're referring to Unremitting, which is ludicrous that you bring it up since it's only really useful to the specs that suck at PvP (Vigilance). The "hiding" refers explicitly to a 5 second stealth that Sentinels get.

Also, whenever you say "can roll hybrid", you really have no clue what you're talking about. Sentinels have no hybrid capability and hybrid Guardians are pretty much worthless. There is a Vigilance hybrid spec, but that's not a DPS/tank hybrid; it's a full on tank spec.

Pretty much all the stuff you were spouting here is mutually exclusive: it applies to one AC or the other, if it's even remotely true (calling Guard/Sents ranged is just /facepalm).

Smuggler - ranged, can roll hybrid, 99% mobility till use heals, great DPS, high DMG, cover, can hide, most skills to use (fun to play), can have medium armor, best aoe CC
con - worst immunity skills, don't have tank, cover is more a stationary target then shelter
Why the hell do you continually tout "hybrid" specs as being something even *remotely* useful? The only hybridization you'll see on a Smuggler is a par-heal spec and that's gonna be worthless. "Can be hybrid" is *vastly* different than "has useful hybrid specs that actually bridge the gap between roles". Please learn this.

Also, what's up with saying both "great DPS" and "high DMG"? Unless you're referring to one as burst and the other as sustained, they generally mean the exact same thing (and, even if you're referring to different things with the 2 comments, once again, you're dealing with largely mutually exclusive traits). Cover and stealth are also mutually exclusive (any Scoundrel that goes into Cover is simply an idiot since it does nothing for them).

Consular - shield enable, guard, best support healer (?), force speed, can hide, good aoe CC from skill tree(Cinetic Collapse)
con - nearly zero mobility till heal, can have just light armor, force shield obsolete till now days dmg, has the only tank spec that not ranged (30m attack) but has the worst armor rate like a tank , no chance for hybrid, zero self survivability for healer compared to other classes, "slave class" - to play effective you can interrupt and sacrifice with shadow dps, or support with heal other till the end of the world like sage.
First off, let's point out how wrong you are about Shadows. Yes, Shadows have the lowest armor of all of the tanks, but they have the best defense as well as best shield/absorb, not to mention the best CDs as well as not-insubstantial self-healing. Only look at armor as the defining trait of a tank is like only looking at the long hardcast heal for a healer; it's a single attribute in a full array of capabilities. Secondly, Shadows are the *only* class I *ever* seen a hybrid spec considered to be even *remotely* effective: the sheer number of PvP Shadow hybrid variants is *amazing*. Talk about a hybrid in pretty much any other class forum and you'll laughed away. Talk about a hybrid in the Shadow forum and you'll get some attention and criticism as well as being directed to one of the 3-4 known-to-be-effective hybrid specs and playstyles (for PvP; no class can really be effective as a hybrid in PvE). Also, not having a 30m ranged attack doesn't really hurt Shadow tanks much (and, actually, they do, but I generally don't count it; Force Potency + TkT gives you a 30m attack; if you go hybrid you've got FiB as well): Force Pull, Stealth, and Force Speed (with Mind Over Matter for slow and immob removal) are really all the gap closing you ever have need of. Also, have you done any kind of research on the Shadow DPS upgrades that came with 1.4? Infiltration got some *very* nice survivability upgrades as well as some decent DPS improvements and attack string refinements. Of course, I don't really expect you to know this because I'm pretty sure you don't even *have* a Shadow.

For Sages, you have a few legitimate complaints *for PvP*. Yes, they're squishy as hell and are really only effective playing as turret characters, but, at least, they're still better than Commandos (seriously, Commandos in PvP get bent over way harder). They've got *amazing* utility and control capabilities though. You're also forgetting that Sages have the, de facto, best heal in the entire friggin' game (Salvation), which is disgustingly good in PvP as well as PvE. There is some concern for their viability as a DPS class, but I don't think anyone has any right to claim that they're not simply *disgustingly* awesome healers.

(I have lvl 50 from all classes)
But do you have a level 50 in every AC? I do, which is why I can point out how ludicrously wrong you are on so many levels. You've got no idea how to discretely separate the attributes of different ACs, much less the differences between specs *within* those ACs.

Tank VGs are decent tanks, with their only real benefit being their general idiot-proofness. Their damage is middling for the 3 tanks, as is their threat, and they actually have the lowest mitigation (but the most stable incoming damage) as well as the worst burst mitigation (thanks to being short a tank CD). VG DPS is decent but range limited (has to be within 10m to be really effective), but has to choose between either burst (Assault) or utility (Tactics). Either way, their DPS has problems with gap closing thanks to only having Hammer Shot, HiB, and Full Auto (which no VG should ever really use, honestly) as reliable 30m attacks (remember, HiB requires the target be affected by a DoT to be used).

Commando healers have excellent mobility until they need to burst heal, whereupon they have to play turret. Even then, they don't have the same ability to maintain continual burst healing that either a Scoundrel or a Sage have (Scoundrel by using Pugnacity and the Upper Hand heals; Sage through simply having a massive resource bar). Commando DPS is decent in PvE, but get hosed in PvP since they're forced, by design, to stand and deliver as a ranged class with little utility and marginal survivability to make up for that lack.

Scoundrel DPS is either all burst with no sustained (Scrapper) or mediocre at best (Dirty Fighting as a Scoundrel is kinda meh) and both specs are hurting for a decent gap closer even though they're melee. Scoundrel healing is pretty much in the middle except for PvP, where burst healing with mobility is required, which is what Scoundrels get thanks to Emergency Medpac (free instant spammable heal on a target below 30%). That's the only real reason that Scoundrel healers are considered OMG for PvP.

Gunslingers have excellent DPS in all three trees and the tools necessary to play a turret in PvP. Of course, they have well defined ways to counter them, and they can't really do much when the target decides to play in a manner that works to play upon the weaknesses of them being forced to use cover. They're good, but they're only borked if you have no idea how to play upon their weaknesses. Their impressive utility and decent survivability are specifically present to counteract their need to stand still and only have defenses against a single angle of attack.

Guardians, as tanks, have the best mobility of all of the tanks (Leap + Guard Leap) but pay for it by not having a pull. They've got good CDs (great effect, but on long CDs) and utility (push, AoE slow, 2 instant cast stuns), but the worst damage and threat, not to mention a resource that makes playing them problematic at times. Vigi Guards are decent in PvE, but not really appreciably good in PvP (little burst damage coupled with a reliance on no-frills Master Strike mean they're easily countered and not that dangerous). For PvP, Focus is a one-trick burst damage pony. It does the burst well, but that's about all it can do: it has little utility and the worst survivability of any Guardian.

Sentinels, as a whole, are all effective DPS. They've got an excellent suite of utility and survivability CDs, but they're squishier by default to make up for it. They've got a lot in common with Gunslingers, except they're on the other side of the spectrum; whereas Gunslingers have to play turret and get the tools to play as such very effectively, Sentinels are forced to be in melee to do anything useful and get the tools needed to get there and survive short periods of attention on them. Just like Gunslingers, Sentinels are painfully difficult to fight against unless you actually know how to counter them (like disengaging and waiting for their CDs to fade when they blow them).

Shadows, as tanks, are the most reliant upon mechanics other than armor, but, while they're have the worst baseline DR, they have the *best* of *everything else*: Defense, Shield, Absorb, self-healing. They've also go the best damage and threat gen, as well as great utility and CDs; in fact, they have the single best survivability CD in the entire game, Resilience, which is pure, disgusting awesomeness. As DPS, they're kinda squishy (if you're note spec'd like an idiot, you've got passive DR on par with medium armor), but they've got loads of utility and control effects, not to mention impressive mobility and burst coupled with access to a pair of *amazing* CDs (Resilience is one of the few CDs that is just as amazing for DPS as it is for tanks).

Sages, while they're less mobile in specific situations than other healers or ranged classes, have better burst mobility; Force Speed is pretty amazing like that. As a healer, they're amazing in PvE and good in PvP: Salvation combined with their burst mobility and utility means that they can hold their own as healers. As DPS, they're probably the worst off of all of the classes: their DPS, both burst and sustained, is middling at best, they are the, de facto, squishiest class in the entire game (Force Shield and Force Mend are intended to counteract this, but, seeing as they both require GCDs, they don't really do so effectively), and they're required to play largely turret style without a comprehensive suite of skills to counteract their lack of effectiveness while mobile. In PvP, I wouldn't bring a DPS Sage, but, in PvE, they'll be able to pull their own weight when played properly.

When you actually look at each spec and AC discretely, Consulars don't look *nearly* as bad as you make them out to be (not to mention the fact that half of the major logical flaws that you bring up stop existing since you define VGs, Guards, and Sentinels as all being "ranged" even though those only exist as gap closing measures, just like Shadow and Scoundrel stealth/movement speed increases). Sure, as PvP DPS, they're not that great, but there are plenty of other specs that are in the same boat (just look at *any* Commando, Vigi Guards, and Tactics VGs). It's enough to call for some fixes and/or buffs, but not enough to go screaming that Consulars, as a whole, are somehow obsolete even though you've really only got a problem with one AC (Shadows are actually in an excellent state, regardless of how deluded you are about their performance as tanks).
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 10:23 AM | #22
@ Kitru

Hoho, that was long : D

You mentioned, that I don't even have a Shadow, so my Shadows name is "DNA" in the pvp server "Tomb of Freedon Nadd" My legacy name is "Orbit" you can take a look to my other characters , )
Please take a look at my post what I wrote 2 posts befor yours, there I mentioning my build and you will see, that if you use focus with that build, it gives you better DPS even if you on combat techniques. And even with this build knights/warriors out dps me, even if shadow is a 4-10m pure close combat melee AC
"I focused on put 22 points to Kinetic combat, till "Harmessed Shadows" for a little self heal and my other goal was to use spinning kicks out of stealth by "stasis". Then I use balance tree till adjudication to have +50% crit dmg from double strike, what I use a lot for "Particle Acceleration" for crit project what I combinate with "Force Potency" when "Harmessed Shadows" has 3 stacks (so project first, till its insta with critic + 50% + 50% from upheaval(if I have luck, )) then TT till its uninterruptible with 3 stack."

By the way, I will give another try to "Infiltration" tree, even if I don't have illusions, but From the posts of "Doomsdaycomes" I I feel like to have some fun with stealth , ) but as stubborn power-gamer I'm afraid, that it will lead to the same opinion like I have for now, but I'm optimist , )

"Do you have lvl 50 in every AC?"
No I have not, I leveled up some classes just for the legacy buff, but not all AC's but I'm close to it , )
Any way, I played with them enough to see, what they are able to do and what not. What tools they have. coz thats the point of this thread mate, we can argue about special skills and there cdmg outcome, AC, DPS, some nefs, some uprades, but I'm interested, that what tool this classes, advanced classes have and what not what they maybe should for balance. Can they make distance? Can they ignore distance? Can they resist or be immune to CC or to DMG ? Do they have to stand still till they are using there "tools" or they can be mobile? What tools they have to survive when they are outnumbered, out play? Is there dmg in numbers can handle the opponents resistance, immune and survive tools? Is there resistance, immune and survive tools can handle the opponents dmg in numbers?..........
So if you played all classes, not all till 50 but you was playing with all, and you meet them in WZ as well of course, you should be agree with me, that Sage is a healing statue and a bad dps (now I don't care about what ranking points shows, they are just points and imo the system is broken, what leads to point farming not wise game play)
And Shadow is a fansy class with good looking saber, who is good for one thing, at the moment, to bring and guard some dmg till he dies - for sure... The Shadow class has incredible exiting tools, like HIPS, ohs, it seems the story is over : P And good skill tree on paper, but here tools are broken, the other half of it is missing to make it a viable (you HIPS for a shadow attack vs 7000 AC 30% defense and 35% shield rate (and then no one used here spec shielding , ) come on... scoundrel has HIPS for heal up or "Flechette Round" with BB or for SF even for a KO (lest don't compare it to shadow strike , )) And I don't even speak about operative - HIPS - dmg - HIPS - dmg....... compared it with Shadow , )

By the way, thanks for your long text, I appreciate that you took time for it, there are a lots of interesting opinions!

xxIncubixx's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 10:36 AM | #23
lol when you say trooper say vanguard please, commando is just total garbage.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 11:12 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Brittaany_Banks View Post
As far as subscribers go... unless you work for Bioware, Electronic Arts, or Lucasarts you have NO metric data on current subscriber base, how many subs may be bleeding from the game, or how many players still have active accounts so just stop with the dwindling numbers argument. Just because some of your friends might be leaving the game DOES not indicate by any measure that this game is seeing MASSIVE declines in accounts.

As far as your unbalanced classes argument goes.... this is a joke of an argument. If you compare a Sage Healer to a Sorcerer Healer the classes are 100% balanced. If you compare a Sage Healer to a Marauder.... YES of course they are not balanced. THEY ARE TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CLASSES genius, as well as all the other classes. You'd have to be brain dead not to realize this.

As far as this "incredible grind for commendations"... I need to understand what you are basing this off of. The new Hazmat implants? Regular daily commendations? Columi tokens? Rakata Tokens? I had a half a bank FULL of gear I've won in operations that I didn't need. This is AFTER I geared ALL of my combat companions as well. I had to sell most of it off and/or ship mods through legacy gear to alts just to make room.

I am currently sitting on 551 daily commendations
I am currently sitting on well over 400 Columi comms (this is after buying tons of gear for my companions
I am currently sitting on multiple Rakata tokens
I am currently sitting on about 70 Black Hole commendations. This is only so low because I recently spent 280 Black Hole comms gearing out my Qyzen Fess tank companion.

Comms are extremely easy to come by through group finder, and the myriad of other ways to accumulate them. You are just too lazy, or simply don't play the game enough to make any significant progress. If I can do ALL that with a job, a wife, and 3 children I think you can too.
Brittaany_Banks... Banksy from Bristol? unveiled! : D

I'm absolutely not qq'ing about the population, I think its great (for me SWTOR community is a bit like NWN1 was, not so big but converging (imo) by the way both game was developed by BW.
There is just one way, how the population comes to this thread, that you started to attack me coz the lack of my English (I agree) but its nothing to do with keep SWTOR an organic, changing, live mmo. If you allow jokes like that for your self in pubs, if we where friend, then its ok... But its nothing to do with it here...
And I'm not handy cap, just my English is maybe not my common, so respect that even in this case, I bring more energy and time to write on this forum, like you who should handle this language perfectly .

About imp and rep classes, AC's - they are totally balanced imo, so if I lobby for a rep class I lobby for the opposite team as well.

Incredible grind for commendation - actually, its not that thread, but I mentioned it to strike back , )
I talking about WZ commendations. I'm a pvp player and my last game was Dark Fall what was infamous by being viable in pvp. SWTOR is worth... IMO expertise should be delete completely from game and players should have journeys for good gear in adventure map - which is the strength of SWTOR! And have fun in WZs if they want to or in open pvp map, but there should be one gear, what you can gather by your journeys, or craft from the mats what was gather in the same way. Is there Queue before 50 for WZ? Yes, there is. Is there expertise base gear - no.
This grind for expertise gear is a bull s* the strength of SWTOR is absolutely different then WZ, we like it, we use it, but this should be just a fast option to run a round if you don't have time for adventuring. WE have incredible great fps games, we have Legue of l (I hate it - personal) and a bunch of pvp rounded game I don't wanna make advertisement for them here.

So I didn't talked about pve commendations, and you play the game how it should be by the way , ) but with your gear from pve you never will be able to pvp well (even if you are a Marauder/Guardian they can out dmg any class with 2200 + str vs expertise - hello balance!
(dally is good, BH is profitable, what you do with columi and rakata? : )) - its its not your fault if nothing, its the game mechanics, what should be upgrade, for example, from the pressure of the forum , )

To fix : I'm a fun of the game, I don't wanna lobby for knight/warrior nerf - I want tool upgrade for other classes and I like the population, the servers are live and full of action, if BW or EA don't have enough profit, I'm sure they can handle it, they are not an mature independent mmo company with no experience. - but they should respect our word as well.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 11:14 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by xxIncubixx View Post
lol when you say trooper say vanguard please, commando is just total garbage.
Yes, pardon me but I mention it in other posts in this thread : ) The first would be commando in my eyes who deserves upgrade.

Nursejenna's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 04:26 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post

Sage bubble - its 1500 absorption general, if you max your healing bonus by power + force power + will power, it can go up to 2000... vs 4000- 9000 critics to your 17000 hp (if you max healing bonus you will have that amount of HP in the end)
Actually sage bubble absorbs between 4000-4500. Unless you have built your sage so horribly that it should have an extra chromosome. If you want to start throwing numbers out - make sure they are accurate.
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar

10.15.2012 , 06:54 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
Actually sage bubble absorbs between 4000-4500. Unless you have built your sage so horribly that it should have an extra chromosome. If you want to start throwing numbers out - make sure they are accurate.
1100 + 3.3 healing bonus
Your formula? Or you count with 1000 healing bonus? When and how you can get that gear for your char and how much expertise it has? , )

PPAlien's Avatar

10.16.2012 , 07:25 PM | #28
All I can say from reading this as a Shadow DPS, is that consulars are far from obsolete. But I'm happy for people who can't play the class properly to think and spread this false rumour because it means we will get buffed and become even less obsolete. Basically if you learn to play your class to its strengths then the gap between their ability is minimal.

Also reading a lot of the posts in this thread made me feel like I was in a conversation involving that robot on coruscant again with all the red rhombus and black bisector stuff.

eventidephoenix's Avatar

10.17.2012 , 06:29 AM | #29
I started off as a Sage DPS, now am healing, and my Shadow tank is on the way.

All I can say is this: We're an obsolete DPS class, but in terms of healing and tanking, we have some pretty neat tricks up our sleeves. Most shadow tanks and sage healers will agree with me on this

LuciferinDNA's Avatar

10.17.2012 , 07:45 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by PPAlien View Post
All I can say from reading this as a Shadow DPS, is that consulars are far from obsolete. But I'm happy for people who can't play the class properly to think and spread this false rumour because it means we will get buffed and become even less obsolete. Basically if you learn to play your class to its strengths then the gap between their ability is minimal.

Also reading a lot of the posts in this thread made me feel like I was in a conversation involving that robot on coruscant again with all the red rhombus and black bisector stuff.
thanks that you compared me to a broken protocol droid : ) its not that bad in my eyes , ) You know there are way to many language in the universe and my processor broke down a bit from this issue what I mentioned, but lets hope BioWare will fix it , )