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can i tweak my shadow tank more and better than this ?

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can i tweak my shadow tank more and better than this ?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
10.16.2012 , 12:07 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I agree with the rest of your post, I'm just not sure how the math supports this particular assertion.
It is because of the 2 roll system. The reason is because Shield and Absorb are only useful when Defense has failed. By increasing your Defense, you're decreasing this chance. By decreasing this chance, you're lowering the comparative mitigation value of your Shield and Absorb. Imagine an arbitrary mitigation setup of 0/50/50. With the given setup, you're going to have 25% mitigation (ignoring DR) all of which comes from Shield/Abs. Now let's add 50% Defense chance to that (for 50/50/50). You'll end up with 62.5% mitigation (50% from Defense and 25% of the remaining 50% mitigated by Shield). The increase in defense has reduced the comparative benefits of your Shield/Absorb from 25% to 12.5%.

I don't calculate using the flat formula you provide. I make it hard on myself and calculate the individual chances of each different type of attack event occurring (Dodge/Block/Hit) and normalize the relevant total mitigation values for the mitigation values for each. As such, increasing Defense chance decreases the chance of Blocking, which diminishes the value of Shield/Absorb. It's because of this reason that 2% additional Defense doesn't actually increase your mean mitigation by 2% and instead increases it by only .73%: your Defense chance goes up by 2%, but the drop in Shield/Absorb and armor contribution counteract a majority of it bringing it down. Increasing Shield/Absorb chance simply decreases the mean contribution of your passive DR (so it has a closer to normal effect). Mathematically, it's a semantic point, but, within the confines of stat increases, it's an applicable concern that allows you to create a decent rule of thumb for which stats are the best to take at any arbitrary point.
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Fallerup's Avatar


Fallerup
10.16.2012 , 08:18 PM | #12
This might sound like a stupid question... but do these things you've talked about... do they go for all tanks or just shadows/assassins?

cause I've been wondering... my current stats on my Juggernaut tank look like this:

Damage reduction: 48.23%
Defence chance: 32.82%
Shield Chance: 45.67%
Absorb Chance: 39.83%

my wonder is this... what stat should I increase to make it better for myself? Also, what stat may I then sacrifice to get it?

I'm told I should have 1 absorb for every 2 shield rating, is that correct? and my Defense should be 50%? The thing with black hole mods is that they are very absorb stat heavy and have a total lack of defense, hence my numbers. I'm currently geared like: 4 rakata pieces with BH mods in every slot (to get the set bonus), my saber has Campaign hilt and BH rest of it. my generator is rakata, along with my bracer and belt, will switch these out for legacy gear when I have the mods to pop in.

I have 2 war hero relics of imperiling Serenity, as I was told these were the best relics for juggernaut tanks in both PvP and PvE, this was of course before dreadguard came out.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
10.16.2012 , 08:44 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallerup View Post
This might sound like a stupid question... but do these things you've talked about... do they go for all tanks or just shadows/assassins?
The general points apply to all tanks. The specific points, not so much. As a Guardian, you should be aiming for 30/50/50 Def/Shield/Abs. Beyond that, my expertise with how to optimally gear Guardians is relatively shallow compared to what I know concerning the other 2 ACs.

Quote:
I have 2 war hero relics of imperiling Serenity, as I was told these were the best relics for juggernaut tanks in both PvP and PvE, this was of course before dreadguard came out.
What we've been saying concerning the relics (all of them except for the healing relics, because that's only useful for Shadows) is appropriate for Guardians as well. There are different optimal loadouts for every fight. Make an informed decision based upon what you prefer to have.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.16.2012 , 11:20 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
It is because of the 2 roll system. The reason is because Shield and Absorb are only useful when Defense has failed. By increasing your Defense, you're decreasing this chance. By decreasing this chance, you're lowering the comparative mitigation value of your Shield and Absorb. Imagine an arbitrary mitigation setup of 0/50/50. With the given setup, you're going to have 25% mitigation (ignoring DR) all of which comes from Shield/Abs. Now let's add 50% Defense chance to that (for 50/50/50). You'll end up with 62.5% mitigation (50% from Defense and 25% of the remaining 50% mitigated by Shield). The increase in defense has reduced the comparative benefits of your Shield/Absorb from 25% to 12.5%.
1 - (1 - 0.5)(1 - 0.25) = 0.625

Which is to say, exactly what you said. :-)

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I don't calculate using the flat formula you provide. I make it hard on myself and calculate the individual chances of each different type of attack event occurring (Dodge/Block/Hit) and normalize the relevant total mitigation values for the mitigation values for each.
This will yield (when simplified algebraically), exactly the formula I provided originally. (well, depending on whether or not you bake in assumptions about boss crit or accuracy)

I do now see what you mean by each stat reducing mitigation contribution. It goes both ways though (since multiplication commutes). Thus, increasing absorb reduces the value of defense, just as increasing defense reduces the value of absorb.
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Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
10.17.2012 , 12:50 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Thus, increasing absorb reduces the value of defense, just as increasing defense reduces the value of absorb.
Well, increasing Absorb/Shield doesn't explicitly decrease the end chance of Defense occurring while increasing Defense decreases the end chance of Shielding. The only thing that increasing Absorb/Shield decreases is the comparative mitigation contribution of your passive DR. It's a mathematically semantic point based upon interpretation of the 2 roll system that you can use as a quick rule of thumb: Absorb is better than Defense unless the percent gains from Defense are higher than the percent gains from Absorb divided by your Shield chance.

Also, I realize that there is multiplicative commutivity and that it can be reduced to a single equation (which would make my life easier), but I'm just used to calculating the chances individually. As I am crotchety and set in my ways, I refuse to do things in new ways (honestly, I had the formula at one point but lost it when my HD failed a few months back and didn't feel like doing the algebra again).
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KeyboardNinja
10.17.2012 , 09:03 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Also, I realize that there is multiplicative commutivity and that it can be reduced to a single equation (which would make my life easier), but I'm just used to calculating the chances individually. As I am crotchety and set in my ways, I refuse to do things in new ways (honestly, I had the formula at one point but lost it when my HD failed a few months back and didn't feel like doing the algebra again).
Nothing wrong with that. :-) In truth, the formula I use for actual theory crafting is vastly more complex than the one that I pasted, since it takes into account all four attack/damage types, relics and the self-heal. I tried popping that formula on a forum entry once, but it took too long to explain. Most people seem happier with the simplified version.
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Fallerup's Avatar


Fallerup
10.17.2012 , 11:08 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The general points apply to all tanks. The specific points, not so much. As a Guardian, you should be aiming for 30/50/50 Def/Shield/Abs. Beyond that, my expertise with how to optimally gear Guardians is relatively shallow compared to what I know concerning the other 2 ACs.
So dump a little defense (2'ish %) for shield or/and absorb then, got ya

Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
What we've been saying concerning the relics (all of them except for the healing relics, because that's only useful for Shadows) is appropriate for Guardians as well. There are different optimal loadouts for every fight. Make an informed decision based upon what you prefer to have.
I see, I prefer to press as little buttons as possible, so the passive ones are more my style when tanking. This is why I prefer procs over "on use". As dps, I prefer on use, cause I don't have to think as much as when tanking
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BlznSmri
10.17.2012 , 01:10 PM | #18
Damn you people and your maths.

My logic behind how I gear and how I often suggest that other people gear comes more from practice and the idea that I should focus my energy (gear) on being great for nearly every situation. So yes, while there is down time on certain fights (and certain phases, such as Writhing Horror and the third phase of Dread Guards), I still feel that having the highest static avoidance and mitigation is great for nearly all situations. Certain relics might be better for certain fights, but really, who caries around 2-4 extra relics to hot swap in between fights? I'd understand that if you're shooting for a Server/ Region/ World first, but for standard progression, it's completely unnecessary. Especially since content in this game doesn't require each player in the Ops to be completely min-maxed to complete it.
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Marb
10.19.2012 , 07:34 PM | #19
If you want to take that path of logic, you don't even need augments, or best in slot mods and enhancements in your campaign gear to full clear TFB hardmode. You don't even need relics.
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.20.2012 , 12:22 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
If you want to take that path of logic, you don't even need augments, or best in slot mods and enhancements in your campaign gear to full clear TFB hardmode. You don't even need relics.
Actually, this is very true. Current content does not push tanks very hard in the way of DtPS. It's really all mechanical. You could walk into EC HM in non-augmented Columi gear (as a tank) and do just fine. Can't say the same for healers or DPS, but for tanks, yes.
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)