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can i tweak my shadow tank more and better than this ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
can i tweak my shadow tank more and better than this ?

alkhattabi's Avatar


alkhattabi
10.14.2012 , 07:25 PM | #1
hello,,

can i tweak my shadow tank more and better than this ? better stats and survivability

my current stats are : (full buffed with exotech stim)

Health : 25192
armor rating : 6141
damage reduction 40.25%
defense chance : 30.47% (534)
shield chance : 65.66% with KW (570)
shield absorption : 60.06% (569)

am using WH defense relic and campaign absorb relic

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
10.14.2012 , 08:12 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by alkhattabi View Post
hello,,

can i tweak my shadow tank more and better than this ? better stats and survivability

my current stats are : (full buffed with exotech stim)

Health : 25192
armor rating : 6141
damage reduction 40.25%
defense chance : 30.47% (534)
shield chance : 65.66% with KW (570)
shield absorption : 60.06% (569)

am using WH defense relic and campaign absorb relic
You can drop your Endurance heavy enhancements and mods to squeeze out maybe 2-4% more shield chance. Also, ditch the absorb relic and pick up the WH/ BM Shield relic
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alkhattabi's Avatar


alkhattabi
10.14.2012 , 08:24 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
You can drop your Endurance heavy enhancements and mods to squeeze out maybe 2-4% more shield chance. Also, ditch the absorb relic and pick up the WH/ BM Shield relic
all my mods r stats heavy not endurance heavy !

so if i need to increase sheild that would be only from a WH relic or lower the other stats

so camp absorb r nit BiS ?

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
10.14.2012 , 11:48 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by alkhattabi View Post
all my mods r stats heavy not endurance heavy !

so if i need to increase sheild that would be only from a WH relic or lower the other stats

so camp absorb r nit BiS ?
Campaign Absorb relics only have an up-time of 30%, only affect attacks that would already have been absorbed, and at 60% base absorb, it would really only increase your absorption by maybe 6-7% (being generous, it's been a while since I've used mine). Whereas on the other hand you can increase your Shield chance by 3-4% for 100% up-time with the BM/ War Hero Shield relic.

You've gotta remember that Shield and Absorb are 1 to 1 in terms of damage mitigation (meaning that you'll mitigate the same amount of damage with 50% Shield and 25% Absorb as you would with 25% Shield and 50% Absorb), so whichever Relic gives you the greatest overall increase to either of those two percentages will be considered better. +4% at 100% up time is better overall than +8% at 30% up time.
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Marb's Avatar


Marb
10.15.2012 , 04:48 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Campaign Absorb relics only have an up-time of 30%, only affect attacks that would already have been absorbed, and at 60% base absorb, it would really only increase your absorption by maybe 6-7% (being generous, it's been a while since I've used mine). Whereas on the other hand you can increase your Shield chance by 3-4% for 100% up-time with the BM/ War Hero Shield relic.

You've gotta remember that Shield and Absorb are 1 to 1 in terms of damage mitigation (meaning that you'll mitigate the same amount of damage with 50% Shield and 25% Absorb as you would with 25% Shield and 50% Absorb), so whichever Relic gives you the greatest overall increase to either of those two percentages will be considered better. +4% at 100% up time is better overall than +8% at 30% up time.
I can see why you would opt for a click relic in its place, but you really can't go wrong with an absorb proc, even if you are comparing the flat stat gain from the war hero relics, the absorb proc relic is STILL better overall.

If you prefer not to use the absorb proc, then using a war hero defence relic, with a campaign defence click relic would be much better than using 2 war hero relics.

The heal proc relic is also one to consider.
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BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
10.15.2012 , 06:40 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
I can see why you would opt for a click relic in its place, but you really can't go wrong with an absorb proc, even if you are comparing the flat stat gain from the war hero relics, the absorb proc relic is STILL better overall.
Mathematically that's wrong. With 3-5% more Shield 100% of the time you'll take less damage than if you had 6-8% more Absorb 30% of the time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Marb View Post
If you prefer not to use the absorb proc, then using a war hero defence relic, with a campaign defence click relic would be much better than using 2 war hero relics.

The heal proc relic is also one to consider.
Not with how high the DR on Defense is after 30% and the, what, 25% up time? Essentially taking the Defense Click relic, for an Assassin/ Shadow is giving you a second, really weak Deflection. Not worth it when it only amounts to an extra ~79 defense throughout the fight.

And I've never really bothered with the Heal Relic...

Edit: Scratch that, the Defense Click relic only has a 20 second duration, making it active for only 16% of the time, and dropping its value accordingly, being an average increase of ~53 extra defense through out an entire fight.
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Kitru
10.15.2012 , 09:20 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Not with how high the DR on Defense is after 30% and the, what, 25% up time? Essentially taking the Defense Click relic, for an Assassin/ Shadow is giving you a second, really weak Deflection. Not worth it when it only amounts to an extra ~79 defense throughout the fight.
I simply have to facepalm at this statement, because it is completely ignorant of the actual usefulness of the click relics. Yes, they provide mean performance over the course of a fight. That's simple math: their rating contribution divided by their uptime is worse than the passive relics. *However*, that's not the entire story.

Unless a boss's damage is *entirely* flat the entire time, not varying appreciably based upon tank swap scenarios or different phases, calculating mean mitigation as if the click relic were passive provides an inaccurate account of its usefulness. For fights where you're not simply taking the same amount of mitigatable damage the entire time (re: pretty much every Ops boss there is), you're going to get more out of the click relic than simply the averaged calculation. Even factoring in "wasted" time while the CD is up by you're not using it, on fights where there is a large amount of off time for a tank (off time defined as "not getting attacked by M/R attacks"), you'll get more out of the click relic than the passive relic.

Why is this so? Here's some math to consider: let's look at the first boss of TfB. It's a pretty simple tank swap fight that has 2 tanks alternating between having aggro on the boss (getting attacked with M/R attacks) and waiting for an add to spawn (which takes like 10 seconds to kill with 90 seconds between each). Tanks have an uptime of roughly 55.6% each (90 seconds on boss, 10 seconds on add, 180 second cycle between tanks; 100/180 = ~55.6%). As such, you're only getting, normalized for uptime, 62.83 defense rating out of that passive relic (113 * .556). Now, let's assume you use your click relic every 135 seconds (average 15 second wait time between uses). That's 14.8% uptime for the Campaign/Dread Guard Imperiling Serenity relics or 22.2% for every other use relic out there (including the Rakata Imperiling Serenity relic, which is why I opt to use it instead of the Campaign variant). Since we're already factoring in downtime by dint of the CD, we just multiply this value by the given ratings (315 for Camp Imp, 290 for Rak Imp, and 380 for Camp Shroud) and we get 46.6, 64.4, and 84.4 ratings, respectively (I always kinda laugh when I see that the Rak Imp relic provides more than the "upgrade").

On fights where there is more downtime, the weaker the passive relics get and the stronger the click relics get. Unless you're tanking an M/R damage boss *constantly*, you're never going to get the full value that you think you're getting out of the passive relic compared to the use relics.

It's for this reason (different ratios of tanking uptime and different ratios of M/R to F/T attacks with different damage/risk weights), that it is simply stupid to say that there is a single best type of relic loadout to use. Every fight has a different optimal relic loadout. For some fights, it's going to be double passive relic (or a passive and a proc, depending on whether you like the proc or not). For others, comically enough, it could possibly be double click relic (using one only puts the other on CD for 60 seconds so you can use both without impeding the other if the on/off time is 30 seconds each). For Shadows, it gets even more convoluted because the healing relics provide some degree of functionality (the only times they're really useful are those fights with a large amount of F/T attacks and/or exceptionally low damage that brings mitigatable DtpS below a certain threshold).

Overall, unless you're bringing in and switching out every single relic you've got for each boss fight depending on the relevant mechanics, you're never going to always have the best loadout. As such, it's up to the tank to determine what they think the most important loadout is. Are they willing to sacrifice some mean mitigation for increased specialized mitigation (whether burst or F/T)? Do they prefer the passive to the proc? It's all about preference. As long as you're not bringing in DPS relics, you're going to get *something* out of each, and they're similar enough in average effect that it's not going to make a massive difference across an entire raid.

Also, when calculating DR and the relevant contributions, it's important to consider losses to your other mitigation stats. Yes, Defense has the smoothest DR curve, but the higher your Defense gets, the lower the value of all of your other mitigation gets. With a 30/65/60 spread with 40% DR (74.38% average mitigation), 2% Defense additional defense (~100 additional at ~500 rating) is going to have you end up with 75.11% average mitigation whereas 4% absorb (~100 additional at ~500 rating) is going to have you end up with 75.47% average mitigation. You end up with better mitigation with Absorb as opposed to Defense because, unlike Defense, Absorb doesn't degrade your other mitigation stats and, even though it gets hit harder by DR, it still provides more on a percentage gain per rating point scale. Until DR hits Absorb so hard that it provides only roughly 1/(current shield chance) percentage gain per rating point compared to Defense at its current level, Absorb will still be better than Defense.
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alkhattabi's Avatar


alkhattabi
10.15.2012 , 09:56 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
I simply have to facepalm at this statement, because it is completely ignorant of the actual usefulness of the click relics. Yes, they provide mean performance over the course of a fight. That's simple math: their rating contribution divided by their uptime is worse than the passive relics. *However*, that's not the entire story.

Unless a boss's damage is *entirely* flat the entire time, not varying appreciably based upon tank swap scenarios or different phases, calculating mean mitigation as if the click relic were passive provides an inaccurate account of its usefulness. For fights where you're not simply taking the same amount of mitigatable damage the entire time (re: pretty much every Ops boss there is), you're going to get more out of the click relic than simply the averaged calculation. Even factoring in "wasted" time while the CD is up by you're not using it, on fights where there is a large amount of off time for a tank (off time defined as "not getting attacked by M/R attacks"), you'll get more out of the click relic than the passive relic.

Why is this so? Here's some math to consider: let's look at the first boss of TfB. It's a pretty simple tank swap fight that has 2 tanks alternating between having aggro on the boss (getting attacked with M/R attacks) and waiting for an add to spawn (which takes like 10 seconds to kill with 90 seconds between each). Tanks have an uptime of roughly 55.6% each (90 seconds on boss, 10 seconds on add, 180 second cycle between tanks; 100/180 = ~55.6%). As such, you're only getting, normalized for uptime, 62.83 defense rating out of that passive relic (113 * .556). Now, let's assume you use your click relic every 135 seconds (average 15 second wait time between uses). That's 14.8% uptime for the Campaign/Dread Guard Imperiling Serenity relics or 22.2% for every other use relic out there (including the Rakata Imperiling Serenity relic, which is why I opt to use it instead of the Campaign variant). Since we're already factoring in downtime by dint of the CD, we just multiply this value by the given ratings (315 for Camp Imp, 290 for Rak Imp, and 380 for Camp Shroud) and we get 46.6, 64.4, and 84.4 ratings, respectively (I always kinda laugh when I see that the Rak Imp relic provides more than the "upgrade").

On fights where there is more downtime, the weaker the passive relics get and the stronger the click relics get. Unless you're tanking an M/R damage boss *constantly*, you're never going to get the full value that you think you're getting out of the passive relic compared to the use relics.

It's for this reason (different ratios of tanking uptime and different ratios of M/R to F/T attacks with different damage/risk weights), that it is simply stupid to say that there is a single best type of relic loadout to use. Every fight has a different optimal relic loadout. For some fights, it's going to be double passive relic (or a passive and a proc, depending on whether you like the proc or not). For others, comically enough, it could possibly be double click relic (using one only puts the other on CD for 60 seconds so you can use both without impeding the other if the on/off time is 30 seconds each). For Shadows, it gets even more convoluted because the healing relics provide some degree of functionality (the only times they're really useful are those fights with a large amount of F/T attacks and/or exceptionally low damage that brings mitigatable DtpS below a certain threshold).

Overall, unless you're bringing in and switching out every single relic you've got for each boss fight depending on the relevant mechanics, you're never going to always have the best loadout. As such, it's up to the tank to determine what they think the most important loadout is. Are they willing to sacrifice some mean mitigation for increased specialized mitigation (whether burst or F/T)? Do they prefer the passive to the proc? It's all about preference. As long as you're not bringing in DPS relics, you're going to get *something* out of each, and they're similar enough in average effect that it's not going to make a massive difference across an entire raid.

Also, when calculating DR and the relevant contributions, it's important to consider losses to your other mitigation stats. Yes, Defense has the smoothest DR curve, but the higher your Defense gets, the lower the value of all of your other mitigation gets. With a 30/65/60 spread with 40% DR (74.38% average mitigation), 2% Defense additional defense (~100 additional at ~500 rating) is going to have you end up with 75.11% average mitigation whereas 4% absorb (~100 additional at ~500 rating) is going to have you end up with 75.47% average mitigation. You end up with better mitigation with Absorb as opposed to Defense because, unlike Defense, Absorb doesn't degrade your other mitigation stats and, even though it gets hit harder by DR, it still provides more on a percentage gain per rating point scale. Until DR hits Absorb so hard that it provides only roughly 1/(current shield chance) percentage gain per rating point compared to Defense at its current level, Absorb will still be better than Defense.
Great info thx !


Kitru what do u think about my current stats then ? Should i lose some little amount of stats for more endurance or for more abs/def/shield (lowering when of them and increasing the other ) ?

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
10.15.2012 , 02:06 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by alkhattabi View Post
Kitru what do u think about my current stats then ? Should i lose some little amount of stats for more endurance or for more abs/def/shield (lowering when of them and increasing the other ) ?
You're pretty much where I'm at with my Shadow tank. I've got lower Defense than you, but I use a click relic (Shield/Absorb rather than Def) in the place of that War Hero Relic.
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KeyboardNinja
10.15.2012 , 11:26 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
Yes, Defense has the smoothest DR curve, but the higher your Defense gets, the lower the value of all of your other mitigation gets.
Given the following expression of mean mitigation against m/r k/e damage:

1 - (1 - <dr>)(1 - <defense>)(1 - <shield><absorb>)

How does defense degrade the value of the other stats? Most people point to the two-roll system here, but if you think about it, defense *has* to be rolled first to avoid introducing conditional probabilities into the above expression, since it is the only damage reduction that is 100%.

I agree with the rest of your post, I'm just not sure how the math supports this particular assertion.
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