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PuG Behavior in Flashpoints and Kicking


Naldash's Avatar


Naldash
10.12.2012 , 01:08 PM | #61
You did nothing wrong. Just the same as you did not ask to "need" it, they did not inquire as to why you did.

I encounter this all the time. I belong to a raiding guild and we look to pugs once in awhile due to RL issues. If it happens once during a FP with gear that is of no consequence then it isn't even mentioned. If it happens a second time then it will be questioned and if there is some sort of "assumed" edequette then it will be explained.

However. I would like to say that ninjas always leave people feeling very bitter and resolute to never letting it happen again. So they may have been sore still from a previous encounter. Take the high road and move on without malice.
"I Love hitmen. No matter how much you hurt them you never feel bad" Sin City

Totaltrash's Avatar


Totaltrash
10.12.2012 , 02:19 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
I'm pretty sure you didn't actually think this through. First: the drama will STILL be there if, say, a Sage does NOT pass on a Jedi Knight gear token when there's a JK in the group. I would be disappointed if it happened to me because as Kitru explained so eloquently, I do expect people to adhere to a social contract. If I do not expect that, any form of social activity (and online gaming is a social activity) becomes impossible, except PvPing in real life.

To not have any loot drama in groups, you would have to eliminate rolling and just have a random generator award the loot. Can you imagine the complaints that would cause? Well you don't have to: there's a reason why Bioware quickly abolished that system for story mode Operations. Nobody liked it.

I'd also say that your suggestion might hold some value (well, if we ignore the aforementioned flaw in its logic) IF the majority of players were actually selfish. However, they aren't, this is simply not true. I played on four different European servers by now and the vast majority of players I ever grouped with adhered to the unspoken loot rules. Yes, I encountered ninjas but they were a tiny minority compared to the players who rolled Need for their own class and spec, Greed or Pass for everything else.

I believe Bioware made a much better change that what you suggested, with items being tradeable within the group members for a limited amount of time. This way the actual "ignorants" can be made to see and rectify the error of their ways while the die-hard douchebags can be weeded out, kicked and ignored if necessary.
Oh yes, I did think this through, thank you very much.

There are 4/8 people in a group and these 4/8 people kill the boss.
That means ALL 4/8 members of the team accomplished the task equally.
Hence, ALL 4/8 members of the team are entitled to roll on the loot.
It is IRRELEVANT if they can use the item or not, they are still entitled to the roll because they all did the work.

If you argue that, I question your sense of fairness and this discussion might as well end right here.

Ideally, loot would be awarded individually to all 4/8 members, taking their classes in consideration.
But we don't have such a system. We only have "need", "greed" and "pass".

The new addition that allows people to trade items actually complements my idea very nicely:
Let's say my sniper wins the roll for a lightsaber and the marauder in my group wants to have it.
Since we now can trade, I can sell the saber to him and we both are rewarded for killing the boss.

I still suggest that we all only use "need" and let the random generator decide for groupfinder teams.
It's as fair as it can be with the current loot system.

Although I come to believe that people rather want to stick to a messy, injust "social contract" (and then complain about the violators) then push for something that is objectively fair and equal.

Wraiven's Avatar


Wraiven
10.12.2012 , 03:15 PM | #63
There was a time when I was on my Pub, I queued up for an Esseles run, time for queue pop was so long, I forgot I was queued for it. I started a tub of water for my daughter to take a bath, then had her jump in the tub. I got back to my computer right when the queue popped.

Once it popped, I accepted, went inside, and told everyone on the team that I would have to afk about half way through the run for about 5 minutes, and asked if anyone had an issue with it and explained that if they did, I would be happy to drop so they could find a replacement...nobody said a word.

Half way through, after a boss fight, I let them know it was time for me to afk...again, nobody said a word. So I got up, told my daughter to jump out of the tub, grabbed a towel, dried her off and told her to jump in her PJ's.

I come back to the PC, not even 3 minutes later (instead of the predicted 5 minutes) I sit down, and type, "Back...sorry, had to get daughter out of the tub" and hit ENTER. I look at the screen to find I was vote kicked and a timer ticking away.

After being kicked, I sent a whisper to the person who initiated the kick explaining to him that what he had done was uncalled for, especially since I let them know ahead of time. His response, "I don't care."

I placed him and everyone else that was on that team on ignore. What really ticked me off, is I did not even need gear out of there...I just wanted the social points.





Another scenario happened when I joined a Story Mode Eternity Vault run on my main, Wraiven. We downed the first boss no problem. Time comes to roll, I pass or greed on everything except for the Biometric Crystals.

The leader of the operations says to me, "You roll greed on mats..."

That kind of caught me by surprise because in past experience, any time I have been on a PUG, if I rolled greed, somebody always rolls need and I end up losing out. Not to mention, I did not need anything in that except the mats. So I said to him, "Since when?"

His reply, "Since always you douche."

Well, lets just say that turned ugly real fast. I don't take kindly to being called names. I hold a certain respect level to all players, but when they start the name calling crap, all morality goes out the window.

So next thing I know, I am being accused of waiting till everyone else rolled before rolling greed on the mats. So I scroll up to see if that was indeed how it looked, and guess what, I was the first person to roll on them. SO I ask them to scroll up and look for themselves and they refuse. They peg me with a stereotype and stick to it and refuse to be dignified about it. The guy I was in to it with even went so far as to convince one of his guild mates that my harsh words toward him, was directed at her. So now it totally gets out of hand.

Just complete trash...simple as that. In the end, I and my whole guild had to black list their guild from any of our raids or anything else we do, on top of putting the putts on ignore.




So yeah, you are going to find some real winners out there. Just got to place them on ignore and wash your hands of people like that.
Republic: Krulex (Shadow) Kn (Guardian) Krll (Sentinel) Wanatrime (Vanguard)
Imperial: Wraiven (Assassin) Krullous (Marauder) Krawl (Jugg) Xin (Jugg)
♠♠♠ The Soulstalker Legacy ♠♠♠
-FIGHT-

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.12.2012 , 04:19 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
...

I still suggest that we all only use "need" and let the random generator decide for groupfinder teams.
It's as fair as it can be with the current loot system.

...
I do understand where you're coming from.

But I like to look at it from the other side of the coin. Not from me needing gear, but from the other guy needing gear. Example:

1. I'm a Sage healer in a HM FP along with a Commando dps.
2. We defeat the final boss and a trooper Columi legs token drops.
3. My companion tank (Qyzen) could use the Columi legs upgrade
4. The Commando dps could use the Columi legs upgrade for his main spec.

Now in this example, I believe that it would be unfair for me to get the Columi token instead of him. And this is for two reasons:

1. The Commando dps can take those Columi legs and have a better chance at running HM Ops.
2. Qyzen wasn't in the flashpoint helping so he didn't really contribute anything to the success of the mission.

That's why I think it is fair. I think the other guy should have that gear. It will help him progress to the next level of content.

Now I suppose if I were 2-manning a HM Flashpoint, and Qyzen were there tanking for the group, that might be a different story ...

This is just my opinion, of course, but I tend to think it's a good one

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
10.14.2012 , 02:52 AM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
Oh yes, I did think this through, thank you very much.

There are 4/8 people in a group and these 4/8 people kill the boss.
That means ALL 4/8 members of the team accomplished the task equally.
Hence, ALL 4/8 members of the team are entitled to roll on the loot.
It is IRRELEVANT if they can use the item or not, they are still entitled to the roll because they all did the work.

If you argue that, I question your sense of fairness and this discussion might as well end right here.

Ideally, loot would be awarded individually to all 4/8 members, taking their classes in consideration.
But we don't have such a system. We only have "need", "greed" and "pass".

The new addition that allows people to trade items actually complements my idea very nicely:
Let's say my sniper wins the roll for a lightsaber and the marauder in my group wants to have it.
Since we now can trade, I can sell the saber to him and we both are rewarded for killing the boss.

I still suggest that we all only use "need" and let the random generator decide for groupfinder teams.
It's as fair as it can be with the current loot system.

Although I come to believe that people rather want to stick to a messy, injust "social contract" (and then complain about the violators) then push for something that is objectively fair and equal.
It is objectively equal but NOT FAIR. Not by a long way. Yes, you are entitled to roll for it in the sense you mean it: the game mechanics allow it so you might as well. However, common decency and fairness might just stop you from rolling need on something you have no use for but would represent an upgrade for someone else.

Your proposed system reeks of the "winner takes it all, every man for himself, the strongest rules" mentality. Let's just fight for everything and those who have absolutely no shame about anything should come out on top. You say you want to eliminate loot drama but to me it seems you just want to punish polite and well-behaving players for the sake of those who want everything for themselves and have no regard for others at all.

With your system, loot drama would go like this: everyone rolls need. The Marauder who did not win the lightsaber would ask the Sniper why did he not pass on it? At that point, the Sniper might prove to be a decent chap and just give the utterly useless thing to the Mara - or, going by your warped version of entitlement, would just tell him to eff off. It would create a nice atmosphere, I'm sure. Unless you mean that everyone should know they always roll need on everything - which would mean adhering to an unwritten rule, an implied contract. Something you seem to be desperately against. Of course, after passing a few times, people would learn that only extreme selfishness gives them any chance in your system so they'd probably adapt after a while, turning them from decent guys with a sense of fairness into "I want everything for ME ME ME" loot ninjas.

Your suggestion would make some sense if you simply eliminated the option to pass as well. No need to roll, the random generator will decide everything. Would anyone play that game in 2012? No but that's none of your concern, you're ENTITLED to come up with stupid ideas. The current system is fine, most people are actually FAIR when it comes to using it and it should not be changed for selfish players with entitlement issues like yourself.

Wraiven's Avatar


Wraiven
10.14.2012 , 10:15 AM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by TalantMAJR View Post
No, you were not out of line at all, for the reason i put in bold.
Without any defined rules, and once everyone else had voted greed, you were fine.
You could have asked, and they might not have cared at all.
But they said nothing, either.
These are the same people that quit because people don't spacebar (quickly enough).
Forget 'em, be happy they're on ignore.
There is an unwritten set of rules. If you plan to need for your Companion, then it is you who needs to let people know up front, that you plan to need for your Companion, not the people who are playing by the usual unwritten rules.

People will sit and justify anything they want to in order to excuse their personal lack of respect for other players. Does not make you right no matter how you want to weave that tall tale of yours.
Republic: Krulex (Shadow) Kn (Guardian) Krll (Sentinel) Wanatrime (Vanguard)
Imperial: Wraiven (Assassin) Krullous (Marauder) Krawl (Jugg) Xin (Jugg)
♠♠♠ The Soulstalker Legacy ♠♠♠
-FIGHT-

Rabenschwinge's Avatar


Rabenschwinge
10.14.2012 , 12:17 PM | #67
I don't think demand can be calculated with algorithms, because it's not always objective. When it comes to orange gear an important question would always be whether or not you like the looks of it. Which companions do you actually use and which ones are you planning to use - might be that you stopped using Tharan and are equipping Nadia up to a decent level right now.

I would very much prefer to just use the current system as it is intuitively. Vote need for things you're gonna use, vote greed for most things, vote pass if the only thing you could possibly do with an insanely valuable piece of equipment is sell it as it is to an NPC vendor. The demand a player declares would not have to be verifiable by the others but someone who votes need on nearly everything is still a jerk, but even then they cannot just everything anything, it's still a matter of chance. However, people like rules, like to declare shiny things they see their property, even at the cost of forfeiting other things altogether. Such an approach would lead to a much more efficient distribution of items, you would get somewhat less items for your particular class, but still enough and could equip your favourite companion along the way, instead of acquiring more items than you actually need. Sometimes you might even get customizable gear that you simply like to wear and replace all but the enhancement modification.

What makes people believe the existing system was flawed is their desire for ultimate control, their wish to declare property on items that already come to existance by chance and their distrust in the fairness of chance I find that regretable. There is beauty in simplicity.

In the case the OP described that was a serious overreaction by the team leader (I might go as far as to quit the team as an impartial player as well, because I find negative vibrations in a team far worse than a missed item). However, waiting for the others to vote and then voting is not exactly a fair thing either, if you wait anyway you might have simply asked, even over something as simple as a medpack; it never hurts to ask.
Ah, yes. "Reapers."

Exgrunt's Avatar


Exgrunt
10.14.2012 , 01:11 PM | #68
Need on everything or lose out. when I'm in a pug i will always hit need. If I'm in a pug its because no one in my guild was online so I'm just doing the FP for myself and i don't really care about those I meet in pugs because at the point I'm there for me not for anyone else. Besides I'm sure that everyone needs the credits from vendoring stuff they don't use
Have fun Kill pubs

Sambril's Avatar


Sambril
10.14.2012 , 02:11 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Exgrunt View Post
Need on everything or lose out. when I'm in a pug i will always hit need. If I'm in a pug its because no one in my guild was online so I'm just doing the FP for myself and i don't really care about those I meet in pugs because at the point I'm there for me not for anyone else. Besides I'm sure that everyone needs the credits from vendoring stuff they don't use
With that attitude be prepared to get vote-kicked and ignored often.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.14.2012 , 03:55 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Exgrunt View Post
Need on everything or lose out. when I'm in a pug i will always hit need. If I'm in a pug its because no one in my guild was online so I'm just doing the FP for myself and i don't really care about those I meet in pugs because at the point I'm there for me not for anyone else. Besides I'm sure that everyone needs the credits from vendoring stuff they don't use
Heh. Heh heh.

Honestly, I don't really care about getting loot and am more likely to give it away. I enjoy running flashpoints because it's fun, and I like playing with others. Except someone like this. Lord save me from self-centered tools that don't consider that a cooperative activity should involve a spirit of cooperation.