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Is this games reputation of having terrible PvP going to keep F2P'ers from joining?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Is this games reputation of having terrible PvP going to keep F2P'ers from joining?

Wainamoinen's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 04:22 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by iasion View Post
Do you play Rep on Red Eclipse? If so, I understand why you like PvP...
Yep, but I also play Imp. Both sides win, but I'd say Rep have more organised teams, while Imps have a worse attitude, so Reps probably win more often. That's all generalisations too - there are good players both sides.

Quote: Originally Posted by NathanielStarr View Post
What about the failure that is ranked pvp? What about the issues with Ilum? The non-existsence of world pvp? The gear grind?

All of that is widely known by anyone that takes 2 seconds to educate themselves in which game to spend their time on.
Some points that deserve consideration there, but together they still don't equal "terrible PvP".

Ranked: three issues combined to cripple. 1) Small pools - same teams play each other repeatedly, one is better, other loses repeatedly and stops queueing. 2) 8-man teams - getting eight people together is much tougher than four or five, you'll probably get exponentially fewer teams as the number required goes up; if you double team size you'll more than halve the number of potential teams (this exacerbates the small pool of teams problem). 3) Still no rank matching - half the point of ranked (other than epeen and motivation) is a method to match teams of similar ability - getting stomped by superior teams stops people queueing (even stomping rather than being a stompee gets dull after a while), they want a challenge with regular wins.

Ilum: a shambles, really should have foreseen the result before putting it out. Having said that, neither is an Ilum essential, it's an extra, warzones reproduce what's in other games already.

World PvP: to get "organic" world PvP you need to give the sides a reason to be in the same place, preferably competing over a resource (Wintergrasp in WoW was a bit like this, and good fun. For those who don't know, owning it provided access to an instance for the winning faction). SWTOR suffers from having its planets compartmentalised, and something like 95% of max levellers will be cocooned on their respective fleets (that counts warzones and instances) with no reason to run into the opposing faction. So no world PvP. I think I've had one decentish fight in Black Hole.

Gear grind: it exists, and geared players are more powerful than undergeared (by definition). But the difference is exaggerated, as is the trouble it takes to get better gear. Assuming we keep some gear grind (not controversial, it gives people something to work for and rewards that they enjoy), and don't separate queues by gear (daft, why have separate gear then?), then you need to find a way to keep starting gear in touch with better gear when it comes to effectiveness. War Hero got moved too far away from Recruit once it became possible to augment everything, as who would augment Recruit? I actually think the game is getting there with Recruit MK2, so stages go:
Novice (to let people start off with appropriate gear) >
-with a little play to earn, becoming more experienced -
Average (maybe 5%-10% below best) >
- then a longer-term grind to give people a goal while not crippling their effectiveness -
Expert (the best stuff, and make sure to take into account the effects of modding)

I might hae to get another char to 50 to see how the Recruit MK2 feels.

In essence, the PvP game is good. It rewards skill and as a team good tactical play wins out.
Its problems could pretty much be solved by ensuring people are matched against opponents at their level (which combines a mixture of experience, gear, skill and ability to work as a team). No more complaints about getting mashed because of gear, premades or some other OP complaint.
A difficulty it does have is that some classes are too strong, but balancing classes with different abilities is a difficult and continuous process that is probably best done slowly and carefully, allowing time to assess the effects of each round. And while it's not a perfect answer, anyone can play any class.

Sorry for long post, brain ran out of control.

TL;DR: people can pick up the complaints about things associated with PvP in SWTOR, but that shouldn't put them off the fact that the actual PvP is good. Having or not having Ilum/World PvP/whatever doesn't stop the actual fights being fun. Whether reading complaints puts them off is another matter.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Eillack's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 09:35 AM | #32
Post 1.4 PvP is for Imp players....F2P'ers won't care at all if they play Imp.
With unity, comes strength...with strength, comes power...with power...comes obedience.....
CE Owner '09 Account
Quote: Originally Posted by BruceMaclean View Post
..I think it's ultimately our fault for not communicating enough.

Bhoo's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 12:37 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by iasion View Post
The game does not have a reputation of having bad PvP, but for having inbalanced fractions in PvP. I bet every poster on this board that think PvP is fine and shouldn't be changed plays the dominating fraction on his/her server. On my server, I have about 20% wins against Rep and get about one fun match every night, rest is facerolls by premades.

So, when the matches gets even, it's the most fun PvP game I've ever played, but most people can't take getting stomped and simply quit playing.
I cancelled my subscription last week because I am sick to death of being a soloer in a world where the status quo is WH geared premades rolling pugs for easy commendations. I love the PvP in this game - when it's PuG vs. PuG there are few things more fun in an mmo.

I choose to be a soloer, and when F2P comes, I will happily start playing again, and play out all 8 storylines. But until changes are made to PvP, that part of the game is simply not for me (my main is mostly WH gear too, all solo que).

If BW either removed 'Join as Group' from the non-ranked que, or made PvP cross server than the PvP environment would be alot more inviting to the casual/solo/F2P people (lumping 3 distinct groups together here, as all suffer from the current system).

Currently, what happens on my server is that when one of the PvP guilds runs their premade, the opposite faction simply stops queing - it's not so bad when I'm on the faction of the premade, as I might get into their team in the next match, but it means I have to find something else to do when it's the opposite faction (I only have a single 50, right now) rolling the PuGs.

A cross-server queue will mitigate the amount that a given premade can dominate: with players from all over, they wont be able to guarantee they will only be facing PuGs, and conversely, there will probably be premade teams from both factions to even things out.

Removing Join as Group from the unranked WZs is even better, in my opinion - and with a larger playerbase it will make the people on vent 'ok-que-now' less of a guarantee they will get into the same match.

And before anyone starts the crap about 'it's an mmo, group or find another game' I've made my choice: I've cancelled my subscription already, and I will be back next month to play out the PvE options. And I thank you for paying my way once I do come back, I appreciate it.

HuntersPoint's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 12:43 PM | #34
I come to this forum for the laughs but sometimes the doom and gloom is amazing, the pvp is fun. yes there is a gear gap but you can still pull through

Yesterday I got my little scoundrel on recruit mk-2 on its first 50 wz. yes other toons looked at mine and I died, but the objective of a wz is to win, not kill so after 4 deads I just sltealthed and went for the doors winning us the wz.

I had fun, I died a lot on that toon and killed some people who weren't paying attention to me. and won some wzs were the pugs I was on were badly outgeared too.

manchusabre's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 01:02 PM | #35
Yeah they need to do something to make pvp better. They redid the resolve system but I'm still getting perma stunned and snared in pvp games. I'm losing about 80% of my health while not being able to move. I've been putting up with that for 6 months now and it's getting old. They make changes because of pvp that hurts pve. PVP is pretty much the only thing for me to do at 50 now. The only pve stuff for me to work on is hm tfb and hm ec. PVP is becoming so predictible and boring now which is what is hurting pvp. I can figure out how the match will play out in the first 30 seconds of the match. Novare coast is the only place with upsets. A lot if the imps are preffering to group and stomp on pugs rather than do ranked wzs. Everyone is lagging now. If the new wz is another 3 objectives map, it's not really going to feel new. It would be nice to see something more than just mobs running back and forth killing stragglers. A guildie referred to swtor pvp as wow pvp with a lot more stuns. I'm almost to the point of going to try out wow to see if it's true.

Boyana's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 01:10 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryvirath View Post
Terrible pvp compared to what? It has better pvp then any other MMO I've played which most recently includes GW2, the savior of pvp. I'm not quite sure why it's so good and ultimately I'm pretty sure it's an accident of greatness, but the pvp potential in this game (as long as they don't make any more 1.4 resolve type changes) is huge and likely the primary reason why half the player base is hanging around.
I agree and that is important!

TheVoidStalker's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 02:30 PM | #37
There's no such thing as a game with a good reputation for PvP.