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Why did people say there is no enough end game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why did people say there is no enough end game?

MorgonKara's Avatar


MorgonKara
10.07.2012 , 07:42 PM | #21
On the other end of the spectrum they could have made the endgame drops all super rare with long lockouts on all the FP instances, but then people would just complain that it was too hard.
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MorgonKara's Avatar


MorgonKara
10.07.2012 , 07:48 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by hippiechick View Post
Its not just the dungeons (FPs Ops etc) that matter. What if you dont raid? If you NEVER do a dungeon in either game WoW will keep you busier longer at cap level.....bottom line. This game falls flat on its face for people who DONT raid/dungeon as soon as we hit 50.
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That's for sure. If you are a soloer the story ends at 50 and there are only the dailies to do. We haven't gotten any new content yet that wasn't for raiders or PvP. well...that last event was pretty good, but no new major story content or class missions. the dailies get old pretty fast too. i got to the point where i was soloing the daily heroic 4s just to challenge myself, but then they nerfd them to heroic 2s
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Muesliac's Avatar


Muesliac
10.07.2012 , 08:07 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I agree with many flaws of this game, such as the management, the engine and used WOW style when people are getting tired of it. But end game? No. Especially to casual players

We got 6 NM FP for level 50, 8 HM FP and most of them were released from the beginning. They are also well designed. Challenging and not too harsh on casual players. We also got 4 OPS(2 from the beginning), it's good enough for a new game. There are also WZ from the beginning.

Sure there should be group finder from the beginning and maybe cross server group later, but the content is good enough

I guess people think this way because compare to the class story, these FP/OPS aren't fun?
Well, I can only speak for me, but you're pointing out precisely why I feel there is not enough endgame: "6 NM FP", "8 HM FP", "4 OPS". Aside from uninspired dailies, only content focused on grouping and raiding. Which is "what WoW offers" to a T. Only less. Because even WoW offers more to 'soloers'.

And yes, while I had fun in the game with the class story and the occasional dungeon, this end game design isn't what I care for. It doesn't keep me interested in the game. So I play a class story, and cancel my subscription until I have gotten enough distance that I can play another class story through the game (since I can't even chose which planet to level on when).
I really like the class stories. I wish there was more focus on immersion, exploration (no, playing Mario isn't exploration) and story telling instead of "the usual WoW crap".
This is not my cow. It is a sheep with a pitchfork. Unfortunately, it goes quack.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
10.07.2012 , 08:15 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Muesliac View Post
Well, I can only speak for me, but you're pointing out precisely why I feel there is not enough endgame: "6 NM FP", "8 HM FP", "4 OPS". Aside from uninspired dailies, only content focused on grouping and raiding. Which is "what WoW offers" to a T. Only less. Because even WoW offers more to 'soloers'.

And yes, while I had fun in the game with the class story and the occasional dungeon, this end game design isn't what I care for. It doesn't keep me interested in the game. So I play a class story, and cancel my subscription until I have gotten enough distance that I can play another class story through the game (since I can't even chose which planet to level on when).
I really like the class stories. I wish there was more focus on immersion, exploration (no, playing Mario isn't exploration) and story telling instead of "the usual WoW crap".
Well group up and do something is the major factor of the endgame of MMO, especially since WOW or EQ.
Sure I love the story more than anything but you cannot ask them to create new story for 8 classes in a few months right? There are also some events and dailies. Maybe they should add pet battle?

If they really can keep the story up by patches it would be super amazing but it's just not realistic.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
10.07.2012 , 08:19 PM | #25
As for the story, I think just like the events, they could add some class story related dailies every patch, or some "hardmode" class quest encounter. Or some method to change the choices that you regret to make.

MorgonKara's Avatar


MorgonKara
10.07.2012 , 08:25 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Muesliac View Post
Well, I can only speak for me, but you're pointing out precisely why I feel there is not enough endgame: "6 NM FP", "8 HM FP", "4 OPS". Aside from uninspired dailies, only content focused on grouping and raiding. Which is "what WoW offers" to a T. Only less. Because even WoW offers more to 'soloers'.

And yes, while I had fun in the game with the class story and the occasional dungeon, this end game design isn't what I care for. It doesn't keep me interested in the game. So I play a class story, and cancel my subscription until I have gotten enough distance that I can play another class story through the game (since I can't even chose which planet to level on when).
I really like the class stories. I wish there was more focus on immersion, exploration (no, playing Mario isn't exploration) and story telling instead of "the usual WoW crap".
I actually agree with you to an extent. There is very little reason to revisit planets after you have gone through the story or to explore around. It's like the path through the game is dictated so much by the main story that there is no incentive to do anything else. Once you get to lvl 50 you can either raid, queue for warzones or start a new character.
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Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
10.07.2012 , 08:28 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by MorgonKara View Post
I actually agree with you to an extent. There is very little reason to revisit planets after you have gone through the story or to explore around. It's like the path through the game is dictated so much by the main story that there is no incentive to do anything else. Once you get to lvl 50 you can either raid, queue for warzones or start a new character.
So I think they should create some events in low level planets and class quest related daily, HM class quest encounters or something to change your choice.

Muesliac's Avatar


Muesliac
10.07.2012 , 08:32 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Well group up and do something is the major factor of the endgame of MMO, especially since WOW or EQ.
Sure I love the story more than anything but you cannot ask them to create new story for 8 classes in a few months right? There are also some events and dailies. Maybe they should add pet battle?

If they really can keep the story up by patches it would be super amazing but it's just not realistic.
And here we go again:

TOR is a completely different game when levelling up than "at 50"; suddeenly, there is no more story. Which is exactly what many people on these very forums discussed when TOR wasn't even out yet. And we were assured that BioWare had everything well in hand, and that we would get more story.
Of course, anybody can play through content faster than it can be developed. That is why there usually are alternate things to do. And TOR would have lent itself to so much MORE than the old, tired WoW model of end game. Swoop racing. Pazaak. Holo-chess. Hanging out in cantinas. I am only a light role player, but RP is also something that can be done - if the players get a few tools to, well, make entertainment for themselves. BAM, low development costs, high retention potential!
I mean, look at WoW and its long "contentless" stretches (one year without new content before Cata, same before MoP). No developer can produce content as fast as it's gobbled up. That is why I still don't understand Bioware's decision to focus their model so that players have a very hard time entertaining themselves in TOR.

And many people play MMORPGs not for the group content. There are other USPs: A persistent world. Socializing (without the need for grouping!). A nice read can be found here.

TOR in particular, since its predecessors were solo RPGs.

I mean, I see where you come from - I'd surmise you've played MMORPGs since the first EQ. But as you can see from TOR, this type of endgame isn't the end-all-and-be-all.
When I played WoW, I had time for raiding. I even made time for it in my schedule. Nowadays, I have other priorities. Like a family, a job, and other things that simply take priority over any activity TOR's endgame offers. But I still like playing MMORPGs when I have the time.
I feel like many players have grown up, but the genre has not grown with us.
This is not my cow. It is a sheep with a pitchfork. Unfortunately, it goes quack.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
10.07.2012 , 08:41 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Muesliac View Post
And here we go again:

TOR is a completely different game when levelling up than "at 50"; suddeenly, there is no more story. Which is exactly what many people on these very forums discussed when TOR wasn't even out yet. And we were assured that BioWare had everything well in hand, and that we would get more story.
Of course, anybody can play through content faster than it can be developed. That is why there usually are alternate things to do. And TOR would have lent itself to so much MORE than the old, tired WoW model of end game. Swoop racing. Pazaak. Holo-chess. Hanging out in cantinas. I am only a light role player, but RP is also something that can be done - if the players get a few tools to, well, make entertainment for themselves. BAM, low development costs, high retention potential!
I mean, look at WoW and its long "contentless" stretches (one year without new content before Cata, same before MoP). No developer can produce content as fast as it's gobbled up. That is why I still don't understand Bioware's decision to focus their model so that players have a very hard time entertaining themselves in TOR.

And many people play MMORPGs not for the group content. There are other USPs: A persistent world. Socializing (without the need for grouping!). A nice read can be found here.

TOR in particular, since its predecessors were solo RPGs.

I mean, I see where you come from - I'd surmise you've played MMORPGs since the first EQ. But as you can see from TOR, this type of endgame isn't the end-all-and-be-all.
When I played WoW, I had time for raiding. I even made time for it in my schedule. Nowadays, I have other priorities. Like a family, a job, and other things that simply take priority over any activity TOR's endgame offers. But I still like playing MMORPGs when I have the time.
I feel like many players have grown up, but the genre has not grown with us.
Well I agree that TOR's biggest failure is to choose WOW's model when people are getting tired of it and I mentioned it in many threads. But under this model they already did a ok job don't you agree? End game is a big problem of MMO, even WOW used at least 1 xpc to make it casual friendly and no other success for a monthly fee MMO. Many people also blamed GW2 for not having good endgame. So it's a bottleneck of MMO, Bio clearly didn't make a try to break it.

Beside WOW, no MMO got so many players, so I guess Bio could not find a model so they copied WOW first, tried to make everything good under this model, added great story and hope the player base would give them enough time to develop. Too bad this was not the case.

I thought about this, and gave my opinion, they could add some class related daily quests, HM class quest encounters and something to change your past. Also some class quest crossovers in the future.

However I think it's not necessary to have schedule in TOR, I just do dailies, buy stuff from AH and do some random HM, it's enough to build up the gear and have some fun.

Macheath's Avatar


Macheath
10.07.2012 , 09:24 PM | #30
It's not that there's not enough content. It's that there's nothing left to conquer.

Raiders have every Operation on farm status, and already have the gear from those dungeons. Avid PvPers, likewise, have all their gear already. And... well, that's it. Space Combat, I guess, but space combat missions are all easy, and we've done them all, too. The farmer's all out of carrots.

There's no raids so hard players are still trying to beat the 2nd or 3rd boss, for example. But this doesn't have to be just about end-game PvE. If there were more mini-games to pass the time, or a bunch more space combat missions that increased substantially in difficulty, or meaningful open-world PvP, or something good to craft (player houses, ships, or at least customization for the interiors of our current ships) we might have something to pass the time with. If we had a world where there were things to find off the beaten path (Datacrons are only a very small gesture in this regard) we might not resort to dungeon running as our only means of entertainment inside the game world.

Currently ToR, like all too many other MMOs, turns into a glorified dungeon runner at end-game. It's not a true MMO any more than Diable 3 or Torchlight 2 are MMOs. They offer levels with multiplayer support, same as ToR. The fleet station is my "lobby," from which I connect to whatever dungeon I wish to play through. What does ToR offer at end-game other than instanced PvE and PvP?

The MMO genre has lost sight of the fact that instanced PvE and PvP are not the essence of an MMO. Those can be provided to us in a regular old multiplayer game. MMOs are supposed to take the next step, and present a living, breathing world to the player. It's kind of ironic that BioWare talks so much about "choice" in their MMO, when they failed so spectacularly to provide us an environment conducive to creating our own fun.

-Macheath.
Remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.