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An in-depth look at: The Prequel Trilogy Jedi and Sith Part 1

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Prequel Trilogy Jedi and Sith Part 1

grandmthethird's Avatar


grandmthethird
10.07.2012 , 12:58 PM | #11
[QUOTE=BrandonSM;5254090
Not like Revan and Malak where Malak was nowhere near Revan in terms of power but he defeated Revan though cheap strategy that took no thought or skill to conduct.'

.[/QUOTE]

and sidious need more skill to win his battle with plagueis did he?
"Hope has a vicious enemy called fate"

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
10.07.2012 , 01:03 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by grandmthethird View Post
and sidious need more skill to win his battle with plagueis did he?
No. There are many reasons he didn't engage Plageuis.


A first reason, off the bat, was the fact that they are undercover and that they were in a Coruscant Hotel and he didn't want to have an epic battle which would unveil his disguise.


2nd: Plageuis already knew it was near his time, in fact he practically admitted that Palpatine was growing more stronger than Plageuis could have imagine in his mind.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

Macheath's Avatar


Macheath
10.07.2012 , 01:22 PM | #13
This is anecdotal evidence. Malak usurped Revan, but was not stronger than Revan. Sidious usurped Plagueis, and was more powerful (at least as powerful, at the time) as Plagueis.

These do not have to be contradictory. Just because, over 1000 years, the Sith grew stronger than ever before due to the Rule of Two, doesn't mean that every single time an apprentice bested his master, it was because the apprentice was stronger in the Force. That's like saying climate change isn't real because it was colder today than it was this date last year. It's meaningless when there is a trend set in the long term.

There are always outliers in any given data pool. Over 1000 years of the Rule of Two, some master/apprentice cycles inevitably made the Sith weaker, but overall the Sith grew in power over that 1000 years, and it was a faster rise in power than had been seen before. Let's also not forget that Malak was an arrogant, shortsighted fool, who thought control of the Star Forge would make him stronger than his Master. I'd hazard a guess that the majority of the apprentices during the actual Rule of Two period were more patient, willing to learn all their Masters had to teach before turning on them; and also, that their Masters were more discerning when choosing an apprentice in the first place.

-Macheath.
Remember, if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Darth_Scelestus's Avatar


Darth_Scelestus
10.07.2012 , 01:28 PM | #14
First off, great post. I love reading these, Aurbere!

One thing that I've always thought (I don't know if there are any canon sources to back this up, or if it was just my first impression) is that the PT Jedi were growing complacent after 1000 years of peace. They didn't have anyone who could actual give the Order as a whole a challenge. Usually, when something like this happens, the skills of the group would diminish as their training grew lax.

I guess I always believed that, while the Order itself might be stronger (larger numbers, more time for training), the individual members of the PT Order were less likely to be as skilled in battle as members of the TOR Order because they had far less live combat experience.

I will definitely agree that the PT Order is stronger than the TOR Order, because that is canon. But personally, I disagree with Lucas here. Same with the RoT: I think it would be more likely that some of the Sith Order's members were less powerful than their predecessors, but Lucas decided otherwise, so whatevs

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
10.07.2012 , 01:35 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Scelestus View Post
First off, great post. I love reading these, Aurbere!

One thing that I've always thought (I don't know if there are any canon sources to back this up, or if it was just my first impression) is that the PT Jedi were growing complacent after 1000 years of peace. They didn't have anyone who could actual give the Order as a whole a challenge. Usually, when something like this happens, the skills of the group would diminish as their training grew lax.

I guess I always believed that, while the Order itself might be stronger (larger numbers, more time for training), the individual members of the PT Order were less likely to be as skilled in battle as members of the TOR Order because they had far less live combat experience.

I will definitely agree that the PT Order is stronger than the TOR Order, because that is canon. But personally, I disagree with Lucas here. Same with the RoT: I think it would be more likely that some of the Sith Order's members were less powerful than their predecessors, but Lucas decided otherwise, so whatevs
In the RoTS novelization I believe it's Yoda who kind of explains this.

While the Jedi Order was indeed powerful they had constantly trained for the same old wars, using the same time tested methods and had become stagnant; they stood no chance against the Rule of Two Sith because the Sith had constantly evolved, studied the Jedi and Sith methods,history and tactics, grew substantially more powerful in each passing incarnation of the Two and trained and planned to fight in new ways, covert and overt.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.07.2012 , 01:59 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Scelestus View Post
I will definitely agree that the PT Order is stronger than the TOR Order, because that is canon. But personally, I disagree with Lucas here. Same with the RoT: I think it would be more likely that some of the Sith Order's members were less powerful than their predecessors, but Lucas decided otherwise, so whatevs
Thats a point, we say that the PT sith are stronger than the TOR sith, but is their any substantial evidence for this? Yes they managed to tear down the republic, but only through deception, while the TOR sith lost before due to backstabbing and infighting. But as Aurbere said, war makes the sith stronger, the PT sith didn't have that, they existed in peace, no passion to give them strength. So wouldn't this in fact weaken them?

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
10.07.2012 , 02:45 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Thats a point, we say that the PT sith are stronger than the TOR sith, but is their any substantial evidence for this? Yes they managed to tear down the republic, but only through deception, while the TOR sith lost before due to backstabbing and infighting. But as Aurbere said, war makes the sith stronger, the PT sith didn't have that, they existed in peace, no passion to give them strength. So wouldn't this in fact weaken them?
Thats the reason.


Power isn't always strength, its also wits and genius.

Instead of going in a Full on Battle they tore down the Republic with little bloodshed. And they probably would have lost if they went against The Jedi.

And instead they took down the Republic through the inside out and were the only Sith that had complete control over the galaxy and became one of the greatest Empires or one of the greatest empires.


Sidious did what Vitiate is trying to do, except Sidious did it in about 10-30 years instead of 1400+.

Power isn't always strength.
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.07.2012 , 03:06 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Temeluchus View Post
George Lucas is on record as saying that the Jedi Order from the movie era and Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order are the most powerful Jedi ever. That makes it G-canon.

However it doesn't say all Jedi and Sith from that era were more powerful or stronger than any from other eras. Logic dictates that they would be more powerful than their predecessors, but I'm sure there are exceptions especially at the insignificant level(i.e Nameless Old Republic Era Jedi Knight versus Jedi Knight Extra You See For Three Seconds in the Prequels).
Exactly.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.07.2012 , 03:34 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Scelestus View Post
First off, great post. I love reading these, Aurbere!

One thing that I've always thought (I don't know if there are any canon sources to back this up, or if it was just my first impression) is that the PT Jedi were growing complacent after 1000 years of peace. They didn't have anyone who could actual give the Order as a whole a challenge. Usually, when something like this happens, the skills of the group would diminish as their training grew lax.

I guess I always believed that, while the Order itself might be stronger (larger numbers, more time for training), the individual members of the PT Order were less likely to be as skilled in battle as members of the TOR Order because they had far less live combat experience.

I will definitely agree that the PT Order is stronger than the TOR Order, because that is canon. But personally, I disagree with Lucas here. Same with the RoT: I think it would be more likely that some of the Sith Order's members were less powerful than their predecessors, but Lucas decided otherwise, so whatevs
Thank you sir!
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.07.2012 , 03:58 PM | #20
Alright so after reading this first wave of posts I decided to make an addendum.

The Rule of Two increased the power of the Sith exponentially. Since the Banite line of Sith remains somewhat mysterious, as do there actions, we can only assume that each subsequent apprentice was more powerful than the master. If not then the Rule of Two would have failed. We know it did not because Darth Sidious became the number one Sith Lord that will ever exist. The Rule of Two created better Sith than any war could have because of the way it was designed. While war and death increase the power of the Dark Side, the Banite Sith would be trained in ways that would increase their natural connection to the Dark Side. Obviously it worked because of Sidious. Yes, i use that argument many times but it is a good argument.

A misconception that the OP did not apparently make clear enough was the fact that times of peace increase the power of the Jedi. War gives them martial skills, but it does not increase their overall power. What we do see is their knowledge of Lightsaber combat increasing, as well as their knowledge of combat tactics. Peace makes a Jedi strong. Connecting with the Light Side of the Force when it is strongest. During the era of peace, the Jedi Order perfected the Lightsaber forms and studied the many mysteries of the Force. What resulted from this era of peace was the greatest collection of Jedi ever seen. Yoda had prepared them for an inevitable confrontation with the old Sith Empire. But he could never prepare them for an enemy that had done the exact same thing he had done. The Banite Sith prepared for a confrontation as well, and they won. Because Yoda had not prepared for something like Sidious, but Sidious was preparing for a fight with him. That's why they lost. That's how Sidious destroyed the Jedi.

Now for the topic of comparing certain members of the PTO to the ORJ. Obviously not every PT Jedi beats every OR Jedi. You can't compare an OR Knight to a PT Padawan. Just like you can't compare a PT master to an OR Knight. It doesn't work that way. Your comparing apples and oranges. What you can do is compare PT and OR masters (or someone equivalent to the master level ie. Anakin Skywalker). And when you do so, PT wins every time. The masters of the PTO are the best.. Second only to the NJO masters, but I believe the PT would give the NJO a run for their money. Without Luke of course. No one compares to Luke.

I hope this answers some questions. If you have any other questions just ask.

And as always. If you have a topic you would like to see in the future, you can post it here or send me a message.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus