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Kerensk's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 10:05 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Technohic View Post
Ok. Ignoring 1vs1; what does a merc offer to a team? What's their specialty?

I can't think of anything I can't do better with another AC.
Sustained ranged AoE that have DoTs. How do you think well played mercs top DPS numbers if they suck at 1v1?
And it's stupidly easy to do if your not dumb enough to charge into the thick of battle with the marauders.
People that suck at mercs are the ones rushing in closer than 10m and spamming the tracer missile like they did before 1.2. Yes you will die if you try to Rambo like that. You're also a retard for playing PvP as a dueling sport and not a team game.
A Mercs job is ranged fire support, you can easily out DPS anybody but you have to spread the love more than a 1on1 dps. Set everybody on fire, make sure that the enemy is always in your AoE, and if somebody wants to duel you knock them back, hold them off until help arrives. You'll still die but everybody does. The difference is that people will continue to burn while you respawn, and the assistance that gives your team will make a difference.
The Harbinger, Piett Legacy
“It's an older quote but it checks out. I was about to clear it. ”

vimm's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 10:12 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Well, that was nearly a coffee-over-keyboard moment. That's one terrifically optimistic way of saying that Mercs get focused a lot.

I have yet to see ONE top rated WZ team that takes a DPS merc/commando along on its A-Team.
How aware are you of every ranked team out there, and their roster?
Phantom of the Operative

Dasgruberg's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 10:13 PM | #133
At the start of this game i rolled a jugg cause i usually love playing mmo-warrior classes. but couldnt decide so i wanted to start a bounty hunter as an alt for PVE, since they looked awesome. It became powertech because i know i love the melee/tank classes in these games. Then i started a jedi shadow when the servers died before transfers.

Concerning mercs/commandos, ive seen a few good ones, but they all rerolled when ilum stopped being a must for gear progression (1.2?)

Basically theyre free kills. Fly in the ointment. I feel really sorry for people loving this class, even those that are healing with it.

I hope bioware can buff them again, and not take 6 months doing it.
Maekor - 55 Juggernaut
Andrine - 55 shadow
Kintara - 55 Powertech
Zaekor - 55 Sniper

Dovahbrah's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 10:17 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by Dasgruberg View Post
Basically theyre free kills. Fly in the ointment. I feel really sorry for people loving this class, even those that are healing with it.
This. I don't understand the people trying to act like Mercs/Commandos are in a good spot. Sorry, you're not that good, stop letting your meaningless forum ego get in the way of fixes to your class. Mercs/Commandos are free kills on every other class I play, it's silly. I haven't had a problem with one in months.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

TheronFett's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 10:17 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Kerensk View Post
Sustained ranged AoE that have DoTs. How do you think well played mercs top DPS numbers if they suck at 1v1?
Any, and I mean ANY class is viable when left to their own devices. PvP in this game have never been about AoE or DoT, it's about burst damage: killing **** as fast as possible. That said, yes, I agree. Mercs excel at AoE damage and sustained fire from range. That's their role in a PvE group, and the same for PvP. However...

Mercs are support class, no doubt about it. They require at least one babysitter, be it heals or peels, in order to be effective. PUGging with a Merc is about the most frustrating experience I've ever had in this game. Running with guildies who can at least coordinate with you is one thing, but Merc still doesn't offer much that can't be done better with a different class.

Jherad's Avatar

10.08.2012 , 10:34 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by IronFirewind View Post
1) 3) I never said Merc is the best choice for a Ranked Team. They just aren't as horrible as the OP is making them out to be.
They're certainly not horrible in standards, I completely agree, and I've said this time and time again.

But only because in standards, there are SO many bad players.

I'd argue that given equal skill and equal gear, you are better off with ANY other DPS in a ranked warzone over a Merc/Commando.


Quote: Originally Posted by vimm View Post
How aware are you of every ranked team out there, and their roster?
VERY aware of the ones on my server, and have a passing acquaintance with some other servers'. Why, do you know of any top rated teams running DPS mercs in their A-Team? Please let me know who and where - I'd be incredibly surprised.
Zacharďah - Commando / Chasso, Aargh - Merc
The Twinkletoes Legacy
Zachariah's Merc/Mando PvP Guides
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

Switterz's Avatar

10.09.2012 , 01:56 AM | #137
Seriously - I would love to see cross-server rateds open up for all these hot-shot mercs to get humbled. Every good team on our server focuses merc's down the minute they spawn, they actually come off the healers and POW, the merc is down in 2-3 seconds with a few well timed smashes/force sweeps.

The good teams do that because no amount of heals/shields can save a merc when there's two melee on him. Not even for 5 seconds (when they get to dual smash again for 10-14k).

So regretting putting soooo much time into this toon just to hang him up due to sheer frustration. Sure with full War Hero I can put up great damage in pug's, but I want to do rateds and can't because I'm a liability with my merc. It sucks.
Pyro Merc - Conqueror

Sorc Healer - War Hero

ArchangelLBC's Avatar

10.09.2012 , 02:25 AM | #138
I don't know what annoys me more. The ignorant *******es spouting some sort of "team support" argument while not playing the class at all, or the stubborn idiots who perform well and then say the class is fine. It's not fine. I have no idea why you think you should pretend it's fine except to either guarantee the class continues to be free kills or so you can keep your distinction as doing well with the class in unranked warzones because that somehow shows you're good at a video game. If you love the class as much as you say you do why wouldn't you want it to be better?

I get it. You want to rub in how awesome you are, and how awful I must be if I can't get such a clearly superior class to perform well in PVP. Post a video or **** because everything you say is just words, and it's frustrating beyond belief to see you sit there so idiotically ignorant of the point. I never hear anyone say what it is they think they actually DO to get good numbers out of the class. Stay at range? Freaking genius. Why didn't I think of that? Oh wait I did. The Maras, Juggs, and stealthers had a problem with that though so they just closed distance in a way I couldn't prevent and then got to me. Drop DoTs on everyone in Assault spec? What a great way to pad my damage numbers! Too bad that damage is almost entirely fluff damage. Useful only when the other team doesn't have a healer who can just erase it all in an instant.

Lets talk about the fire support "good at 4v4" comment I keep seeing because that one is a real head scratcher.
Do you honestly think you're contributing to victory? I finished up my weekly tonight, got some pretty decent numbers. Top 3 in damage for all the warzones played tonight in gear that at best could be considered mediocre.

My analysis is that we can at best provide a small tipping point to what is otherwise a stalemate. Rolling up on a fight where your team is getting the worst of it? Unless you arrived with more reinforcements besides yourself you aren't saving the node. They'll finish off the people they were beating and then it's you left against them, and while other classes have the tools to prolong the engagement for a little longer (which is that much longer the people can't go and reinforce the node your team has shifted the attack to, or that much longer for your teammates to come back in with fresh health/energy bars) as a commando you can only sit there and die quickly. Granted no one stands up well to focus fire, but commando stands up the worst of absolutely any of the classes (cept sage maybe, but these days I'm not so sure). Rolling up on a fight where your team is winning? You'll help them finish a little quicker and do good damage, but they were going to win there anyway. The worst is when you come up on a node that called for help, help them finish clearing it off because it turns out they could handle it anyway, and then the people who were bored on guard duty decide you make an excellent replacement and now you're there to sit there and die quickly if someone from the other team decides to come back. Either way, you aren't being a difference maker unless you roll up on a stalemate but ANY class will tip the scales in that situation. I daresay that a fresh-50-in-full-recruit-gear-commando can tip the balance in that situation, unless they get reinforcements of their own.

As has been said, ANY class can perform well when left to free cast, and ANY ranged class can try and find nooks where they can increase the chance that they'll go unnoticed for awhile. But when sages are discovered they can run because that class was given kiting tools. When Gunslingers are discovered they can knockback, root, or just pop their immunity to everything but diversion shield so that you can't actually stop them from getting their damage out. Commandos can't run, we can't hide, and we damn sure don't have the survivability to sit there and take it, and THAT is the problem. We can take some focus off healers but only if those healers force feed us heals because Heavy Armor without a tank spec just doesn't stand up to much in this game, and the defensive cooldowns for troopers are absolutely abysmal.

On sustained vs burst: Yes gunnery's sustained damage is pretty good and steady, but a lack of really solid burst really slows it down in PVP. In a world where TTK in general was higher, this wouldn't matter, and the decent pressure Gunnery can put out would indeed be a tide turner. In a world where it's burst or be bursted it can definitely be frustrating, though here I will say that at least when pressuring healers, our interrupt now helps a ton in keeping them from just healing themselves up completely back to full.

Meanwhile Assault has decent (but not really great) burst, but it's sustained is absolutely horrible, so to whoever was talking about snipers being SOL if their burst doesn't kill the opponent, that's how every single day is for an Assault Commando. Your burst, if you get your IA proc, will definitely leave them hurting, but it won't leave them dead and that's going to be a problem.

The class is great for training you to use your environment because you don't have other tools to worry about, which also means you don't have any other tools BUT the environment to try and use. Once you gain those skills though and shift to a class that DOES have those other tools, you'll find your overall contributions go up. To the dude who says his commando contributes as much as his sent: On what basis do you consider yourself a top 10% sent? Honest question. If it's that you do top 10% damage then dude you are missing out on some of the great things sent has to offer. Awe, much like Flash Grenade, is more team utility packed into that one 60s cooldown ability than lies in all of Commando's arsenal, especially after the stock strike knockback nerf. This doesn't even take into account Inspiration or Transcendence. Transcendence is just an absolutely amazing ability in top tier PVP. PVP is more than just damage.

And that's really the problem. The question I posed awhile ago in another thread is: "Why should you bring a DPS Commando to a ranked warzone". I felt like every class should be able to provide things you can bring. I feel I can make valid arguments for pretty much every AC in the game, in any role that that AC is capable of with the glaring exception of DPS commando. Damage is all well and good, but literally every AC can bring damage, and many of them don't require being completely unnoticed to do it well. If we were just talking damage then yeah let commando roll up on the zerg (or if the beginning hang back and let the zerg develop for a few seconds), find a nice comfy spot where you can obstacle hump if necessary and things can go pretty well for you on the scoreboard from a damage perspective. But, again, you can do that on Sage or Gunslinger too, and actually they can find better spots since many of their skills have a better range, and if they are noticed they have a better chance of making themselves too annoying to be worth the effort of killing. Can commando well and truly tip the scales in a way that wouldn't be able to be done with any sort of warm body though? That I don't know, but my feeling is not.

As for why I still play the class: To be honest my commando is almost exclusively PVE these days. It's an environment where the class shines, and I mostly use my shadow for PVP. But every now and then I go back to PVP on commando. Playing a few melee classes certainly granted some insight on how best to counter them, or at least annoy them. I like the look of the class. I love the big cannon, and I love the armor, and I'd love to not PVP in a dress. Commando is my first love, and I don't want my alt to become my defacto main. But anytime someone starts talking ranked, I'm going to be asked to switch to shadow because that class can be a difference maker. I guess I just don't understand why those of you who claim to love the class don't seem to want to see it made better.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.


Svii's Avatar

10.09.2012 , 03:31 AM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by Switterz View Post
The good teams do that because no amount of heals/shields can save a merc when there's two melee on him. Not even for 5 seconds (when they get to dual smash again for 10-14k).
Ignoring the rest of the thread, this made me smirk. Can anyone survive this kind of focus or is it only Merc/Commando that is allergic to focus fire?

Invalid argument

Siorac's Avatar

10.09.2012 , 03:51 AM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post
Ignoring the rest of the thread, this made me smirk. Can anyone survive this kind of focus or is it only Merc/Commando that is allergic to focus fire?

Invalid argument
Well Knights/Warriors and Agents/Smugglers have AoE mez; Knights/Warriors can also leap away to another target; in the case of Guardians/Juggernauts they can leap to a friendly target which is also a self-heal. Consulars/Inquisitors have Force Speed to get away; Shadows/Assassins and Operatives/Scoundrels can go into stealth.

Commandos/Mercs have no such escape abilities, only knockback, single target root and single target stun. So they die a lot faster in a 2 v 1 situation than most classes.