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Bioware can you explain to me why...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Bioware can you explain to me why...
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Ahebish's Avatar


Ahebish
10.19.2012 , 01:11 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by NamikazeNaruto View Post
Smash can hit people for 10k AoE up to 5 people? You think I am kidding... but I am not, a friend of mine critted someone for 9k on his smash yesterday. My biggest hit on assassin is up to 7.5k and that is single hit. Yet not only can Smash/Force Sweep do more damage on a single target.... but it hits 5 people at once! There are 3 different ways to have your stacks of singularity up to accomplish this so basically every time smash is off cooldown you can land it on people with the full damage.

Every game you can tell who the smash specced people are. because they have at least 200k more overall damage than anyone else on the scoreboard. Sure maybe one smash specced player is not so bad. However, now since people know how powerful it is... most people that are a guardian/jugg/sent/mara just abuse the crap out of this. So teams take 2 or 3 smashes to the face for about 5-6k damage a piece if you are full WH... and up to 9-10k if your gear is horrible. Now multiply that damage by 2 or 3 because that is how many smash specced players are usually in a warzone. So if there were 3 of them... WH geared people lose 15k-18k health instantly and horribly geared players take up to 27k-30k damage. Just tell me Bioware... how is this in any way balanced?
Because everyone said it was overpowered when an operative did it exclusively to single targets and not on an AOE.

I love seeing smash jug QQ threads, because people act like this spec just now became overpowered when they used to hit 9k crits at launch and some how escaped the nerf bat becuase us operatives were clearly overpowered.

mrekxxx's Avatar


mrekxxx
10.19.2012 , 01:14 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Savej View Post
Rage/Focus was not FOTM since launch - it took most people a month or two to figure out it was the best guardian dps spec. And then most people figured out that Watchmen was better than everything a month or two after that. Vigilance was solid as of 1.2 and watchman got nerfed a bit. Then in 1.3 it was combat for sentinels and guardians in pvp were mostly tank hybrid ball carriers, guards and aoe slowers (focus was too much of an easily nullified glass cannon). Pure focus guardians became rare and a bit of a joke. Now in 1.4 people can play guardian dps again and be viable (in pve too) which is what most people wanted in the first place: dps guardians, the iconic class of this game, are getting taken off their shelves, dusted off and are being used again. And they're doing a lot of damage. But there are still plenty of other classes/specs that will wipe the floor with pure rage/focus specs in 1v1 fights. I don't see the focus/rage trend lasting; I am seeing a lot more operatives and deception sins running around on POT5.

I do agree that the upper vigilance tree probably needs some love.

this... i agree ... rage now has same dmg than mara and PT, prolly assasin is yet a bit better ...

and autocrit has also lightning sorcerer, but they are usually bad, but there are a few of them who can outdmg juggs or PT or mara ...

so when some1 get asskicked just take one operative healer and he is atm most OP class, u need on good op healer 2 smashers get him down ... at least :P i play juggy, sorcerer, operative and juggy is now on right way ...

PeaceKeePin's Avatar


PeaceKeePin
10.19.2012 , 01:28 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by mrekxxx View Post
this... i agree ... rage now has same dmg than mara and PT, prolly assasin is yet a bit better ...

and autocrit has also lightning sorcerer, but they are usually bad, but there are a few of them who can outdmg juggs or PT or mara ...

so when some1 get asskicked just take one operative healer and he is atm most OP class, u need on good op healer 2 smashers get him down ... at least :P i play juggy, sorcerer, operative and juggy is now on right way ...
I am not trying to be an ***** but i had a very hard time understanding what you just typed.

focus/rage is the same it's always been. Theres just a lil more armor Pen to it. 1.2 to 1.4 kinda Dumbed it down but it still hit like a truck. It seems there always had to be a certain class to QQ about though. Guess it's our turn.
Brealin Level 50 Guardian
Raelin Level 50 Commando
Shawty Level 50 Gunslinger

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
10.19.2012 , 01:32 PM | #114
Unfortunately whats probably going to happen is Rage/Focus will infact get nerfed...and they wont do anything for Veng/Vig....which they unjustly Nerfed apperently to drive folks to the New UberDerpa Rage spec....
Born on Bria.
Clone Zerging Since 2003!

Aluvi's Avatar


Aluvi
10.19.2012 , 01:34 PM | #115
Rage spec for juggs has always been amazing. Rage juggs got a small buff in 1.4, but you have to realize, this is their only high dps pvp spec. Vengeance CAN do well, but it's very rare, and it will never match Rages numbers.

The real change was that Bioware "fixed" the rage spec for marauders. And really, it was a small tweak. Before 1.4 berserk gave you free 4 stack of shockwave (smash buff that makes it hit so hard) and 6 free or possibly rage building vicious slashes. The issue was that, while these slashes did good damage and were free or basically built a full rage bar for you, they did NOT build fury. You could only begin building fury after you had expended those 6 slashes. The change means that you can start working on your next 30 stack of fury and turn it into more rage + shockwave immediately after using berserk, or very very soon after. The end result is as follows:

1. 30 stack fury + berserk builds full rage bar + 4 stack shockwave, you smash.
2. Vicious slash spam builds 30 stack fury. Go to 1.

As an added bonus, if you start "dry" (no rage or fury, no frenzy), you have force choke and crush to build stacks. This coupled with a battering assault or 2 will get you to your 30 stack of fury, at which point you can start the above cycle.

Now, I've already gone over in a separate post why Carnage is much worse than Rage in PvP in 1.4 and why. You can read that post in the Marauder forums, it is entitled "Carnage is Dead". So put the two together: Carnage is no longer as viable as it once was due to bubble stuns, sorc buffs, and rage buffs, and the fact that rage plays so much more fluidly now, and you have a recipe for exactly what the developer was quoted as saying earlier in this thread: all those anni/carnage maras are now trying this new and improved rage, and people are getting their faces smashed by it.

Now having said that, I want to point out a few things. Before we start crying nerf about rage warriors, we need to consider other classes as well.

Bubble Stun
I think everyone agrees that bubble stuns need to have their resolve generation increased to be proportionate to the stun time. This buff coupled with the fact that resolve is more "smart" now and doesn't fill a bar for overlapping stuns more quickly makes this game a complete stunfest at the moment.

Pyrotech Powertechs
PT PTs can still keep up with or out dps rage warriors, and they are primarily single target, while rage warrior is aoe. They have by far the best burst in the game. I think people are affected more dramatically when they see a smash go down that takes 4-5 people down by 1/3 of their hp, versus seeing a single person taken out in 4-5 GCDs by a pyrotech. The fact remains that pyro PTs still do the sickest and most useful damage in warzones.

Operative Stunlocks
Always has been annoying as hell. In my opinion, buff their sustained dps (for better pve usability), nerf their stunlocking.

I also have seen several people mention the 10% buff to the armor penetration talent. Most people see this as a straight up 10% buff to damage, and that is far from the truth. Lets say your average player has 20-30% damage reduction from armor. We will say 30% for the high end. From my understanding, 10% more armor penetration means that you will reduce their armor damage reduction by 10%. So 10% of 30% is only 3%. This 10% armor pen increase is on average only a 3% buff to our damage, less on light armor targets. This primarily was to help us with tanks and heavy armor folks.

Finally, I'd like to also add that Vicious slash got nerfed significantly, in that it no longer hits 2 targets with berserk up, which was a big deal in the old 1.3 and previous rage specs. When it crits for 3k mainhand / 600 offhand, times two, that is a pretty big deal. Granted, I'd never trade our current rage spec for the old one - the new spec just plays so much more fluid. The best way that I can describe the old style of Rage is "clunky". It just felt very obtuse and difficult to use, not very rewarding. The new spec is the exact opposite, and from hearing what devs have said, I think that is what they were going for. I applaud the devs for making the most "unfun / high risk low reward" spec into one of the most fun specs. You also have to realize, the warriors putting up truly huge numbers have gone through hell to remod their gear. With the amount of comms I have spent to remod my gear to full power/surge and str/power, I could have at least 3 toons in full war hero gear. Think about that the next time me or another perfectly geared warrior smashes you for 6k - It took 3 toons worth of PvP grinding to get that warrior up to where he is competitive in PvP. Valor Rank 97, that's what it took to complete my set. And I have been PvPing since the days of "Battlemaster Bags". Oh boy were those fun.
Aluvian (now Aluvien) Sith Marauder <Infinite Darkness> POT5
Youtube Channel:http://www.youtube.com/kdbutler2
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Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
10.19.2012 , 01:57 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by Aluvi View Post
Rage spec for juggs has always been amazing. Rage juggs got a small buff in 1.4, but you have to realize, this is their only high dps pvp spec. Vengeance CAN do well, but it's very rare, and it will never match Rages numbers.

The real change was that Bioware "fixed" the rage spec for marauders. And really, it was a small tweak. Before 1.4 berserk gave you free 4 stack of shockwave (smash buff that makes it hit so hard) and 6 free or possibly rage building vicious slashes. The issue was that, while these slashes did good damage and were free or basically built a full rage bar for you, they did NOT build fury. You could only begin building fury after you had expended those 6 slashes. The change means that you can start working on your next 30 stack of fury and turn it into more rage + shockwave immediately after using berserk, or very very soon after. The end result is as follows:

1. 30 stack fury + berserk builds full rage bar + 4 stack shockwave, you smash.
2. Vicious slash spam builds 30 stack fury. Go to 1.

As an added bonus, if you start "dry" (no rage or fury, no frenzy), you have force choke and crush to build stacks. This coupled with a battering assault or 2 will get you to your 30 stack of fury, at which point you can start the above cycle.

Now, I've already gone over in a separate post why Carnage is much worse than Rage in PvP in 1.4 and why. You can read that post in the Marauder forums, it is entitled "Carnage is Dead". So put the two together: Carnage is no longer as viable as it once was due to bubble stuns, sorc buffs, and rage buffs, and the fact that rage plays so much more fluidly now, and you have a recipe for exactly what the developer was quoted as saying earlier in this thread: all those anni/carnage maras are now trying this new and improved rage, and people are getting their faces smashed by it.

Now having said that, I want to point out a few things. Before we start crying nerf about rage warriors, we need to consider other classes as well.

Bubble Stun
I think everyone agrees that bubble stuns need to have their resolve generation increased to be proportionate to the stun time. This buff coupled with the fact that resolve is more "smart" now and doesn't fill a bar for overlapping stuns more quickly makes this game a complete stunfest at the moment.

Pyrotech Powertechs
PT PTs can still keep up with or out dps rage warriors, and they are primarily single target, while rage warrior is aoe. They have by far the best burst in the game. I think people are affected more dramatically when they see a smash go down that takes 4-5 people down by 1/3 of their hp, versus seeing a single person taken out in 4-5 GCDs by a pyrotech. The fact remains that pyro PTs still do the sickest and most useful damage in warzones.

Operative Stunlocks
Always has been annoying as hell. In my opinion, buff their sustained dps (for better pve usability), nerf their stunlocking.

I also have seen several people mention the 10% buff to the armor penetration talent. Most people see this as a straight up 10% buff to damage, and that is far from the truth. Lets say your average player has 20-30% damage reduction from armor. We will say 30% for the high end. From my understanding, 10% more armor penetration means that you will reduce their armor damage reduction by 10%. So 10% of 30% is only 3%. This 10% armor pen increase is on average only a 3% buff to our damage, less on light armor targets. This primarily was to help us with tanks and heavy armor folks.

Finally, I'd like to also add that Vicious slash got nerfed significantly, in that it no longer hits 2 targets with berserk up, which was a big deal in the old 1.3 and previous rage specs. When it crits for 3k mainhand / 600 offhand, times two, that is a pretty big deal. Granted, I'd never trade our current rage spec for the old one - the new spec just plays so much more fluid. The best way that I can describe the old style of Rage is "clunky". It just felt very obtuse and difficult to use, not very rewarding. The new spec is the exact opposite, and from hearing what devs have said, I think that is what they were going for. I applaud the devs for making the most "unfun / high risk low reward" spec into one of the most fun specs. You also have to realize, the warriors putting up truly huge numbers have gone through hell to remod their gear. With the amount of comms I have spent to remod my gear to full power/surge and str/power, I could have at least 3 toons in full war hero gear. Think about that the next time me or another perfectly geared warrior smashes you for 6k - It took 3 toons worth of PvP grinding to get that warrior up to where he is competitive in PvP. Valor Rank 97, that's what it took to complete my set. And I have been PvPing since the days of "Battlemaster Bags". Oh boy were those fun.
I dont think it is good sign of balance when some of the premier players of Sent/Mara come into the forums and proclaim they are going Rage and there is no longer any reason to play the other two specs....and Mara/Sent has always been known as the AC that was "OP" and had three valid Specs to choose from......

With Jugg/Guard its always been Rage/Focus as the "Valid" PvP tree...@ one point Veng/Immortal hybrid had its uses..But the point of it was it was tanky and could crank out some dmg...and then it got the dmg nerfed...Yes it still works....But not like it used to before the nerf...and the whole choke ravage thing is too CD dependent. They throw a Nerf on Veng/Vig....Which was completely uncalled for....

These tweaks to Rage/Focus were enough to essentially drive all competative SW's to the Rage spec.....That is a clear Imbalance period....Meanwhile anyone who wants to play any other spec is now considered second rate...and PvP has turned into "Hold em still so the 3 Warriors can triple bomb the whole group to death....

If they truely didnt see that coming....Well lets just say it confirms we are in deep PooDoo.
Born on Bria.
Clone Zerging Since 2003!

RAVM's Avatar


RAVM
10.19.2012 , 02:51 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by CBRGhostRider View Post
FYI, I think the main issue with smash is the ridiculous auto-crit, which enables the player to stack surge and power and have big smash numbers.
My suggestion in another thread was to have diminishing returns on Power at a certain threshold to lower the damage somewhat for those who have optimised their gear to the extreme. Another idea I thought of could be to change the auto-crit to instead set up a crit chance multiplier of 2.5.

For examples:
30% default crit chance * 2.5 = 75% chance to crit on the next smash/sweep, instead of 100%
35% default crit chance * 2.5 = 87.5% chance to crit

It's a bit of a nerf and would help to discourage stacking one or two stats.

Anyways, I have a hard time believing anyone got hit for 9K, unless maybe they had 0 expertise.

CharterMonkKent's Avatar


CharterMonkKent
10.19.2012 , 03:03 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by RAVM View Post
My suggestion in another thread was to have diminishing returns on Power at a certain threshold to lower the damage somewhat for those who have optimised their gear to the extreme. Another idea I thought of could be to change the auto-crit to instead set up a crit chance multiplier of 2.5.

For examples:
30% default crit chance * 2.5 = 75% chance to crit on the next smash/sweep, instead of 100%
35% default crit chance * 2.5 = 87.5% chance to crit

It's a bit of a nerf and would help to discourage stacking one or two stats.

Anyways, I have a hard time believing anyone got hit for 9K, unless maybe they had 0 expertise.
This change would make the spec pretty awful at PvE. Doing 4.5k-6.5k damage every 10-12 seconds is already pretty weak in PvE. The damage between smashes averages under 2k dps over that 10-11 seconds. The average DPS between smashes in pvp is probably near 1k. Factors like the jugg needing to close in on someone on foot, using CCs, intercede, etc.

If the devs take the complaints in this post seriously they may put a limit on the number of targets affected by smash. I doubt it though. This would make PvE solo dalies pretty awful on a smash spec.
Wnk & Zlk & Knk & Xlk & Znk & Ynk & Tnk & Qnk & Chart
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CBRGhostRider's Avatar


CBRGhostRider
10.19.2012 , 03:20 PM | #119
While we are all focussed on the big smashes, I would also like to make an honorable mention for the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrIXbWXSXXE

How Bioware thinks this is balanced is completely beyond me. There is no real resource constraint and each attack (main + offhand combined) is hitting for 2k or even 3k+ when it crits.

Now I don't play a marauder, so correct me if I am wrong on the following please.

Going back to the quote from Aluvi:
Quote:
1. 30 stack fury + berserk builds full rage bar + 4 stack shockwave, you smash.
2. Vicious slash spam builds 30 stack fury. Go to 1.
#1 is basically free (smash with 4 shockwaves) and really really hard hitting. It also auto crits with charge and obliterate.
#2 is basically free as demonstrated by the video, additionally reduces the cooldown of smash, and itself hits pretty hard (2k to 3k).

Add to this the numerous cooldowns that a mara gets to survive, and it is just insane.... or perfectly balanced in Bioware's world.
Spoiler

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
10.19.2012 , 03:31 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by CharterMonkKent View Post
This change would make the spec pretty awful at PvE. Doing 4.5k-6.5k damage every 10-12 seconds is already pretty weak in PvE. The damage between smashes averages under 2k dps over that 10-11 seconds. The average DPS between smashes in pvp is probably near 1k. Factors like the jugg needing to close in on someone on foot, using CCs, intercede, etc.

If the devs take the complaints in this post seriously they may put a limit on the number of targets affected by smash. I doubt it though. This would make PvE solo dalies pretty awful on a smash spec.
LOL. Tell me you're just trolling. If you seriously believe that solo dailies should be a factor at class balance... well... I don't know what to say. Not to mention that HEALERS and TANKS do solo dailies! Really, they do! They don't Smash for 7k!

Focus is very strong in PvE. The suggested change would merely require Focus Guardians/Sentinels to have some crit chance on their gear, as opposed to stacking power and strength only.