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Respect Revan


Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
10.10.2012 , 07:35 AM | #81
Would people please stop calling Revan a Jedi or a Sith for that matter, he hasn't been a Jedi since before he splintered off and went to war, he was never a Sith because there were varying complexities to how he became Darth Revan, simply put, not wilfully at all, but through the Emperor, when he was freed of his mental choke hold, he actually believed he'd done such through his own accord.

Revan is Revan, not a Jedi and not a Sith, regardless of titles.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
10.10.2012 , 07:36 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by BrandonSM View Post
Yes but the Prequel Jedi understood that, but they also understood the lost of a loved one can turn you dark.
I find it funny that people bring up why no attachments is so 'stupid' especially the Saga, then ignore the entire reason for why it all went pro-Sith in the first place, Anakin's attachments leading him to the Dark Side.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.10.2012 , 08:18 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
I find it funny that people bring up why no attachments is so 'stupid' especially the Saga, then ignore the entire reason for why it all went pro-Sith in the first place, Anakin's attachments leading him to the Dark Side.
But the lesson of the movies taken as a whole is that it isn't the attachments that cause someone to turn. It is the way a person deals with their emotions. Luke could control his emotions and used them to prevail over the dark side. He would not have defeated the Emperor if not for his attachments. If the Jedi were trained to understand and control their emotions rather than deny them, you'd have a lot less Jedi falling to the dark side. Emotion is part of what makes us human. Expecting people not to feel those emotions is absolutely unrealistic. It's like expecting a dog not to bark.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.10.2012 , 09:48 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
But the lesson of the movies taken as a whole is that it isn't the attachments that cause someone to turn. It is the way a person deals with their emotions. Luke could control his emotions and used them to prevail over the dark side. He would not have defeated the Emperor if not for his attachments. If the Jedi were trained to understand and control their emotions rather than deny them, you'd have a lot less Jedi falling to the dark side. Emotion is part of what makes us human. Expecting people not to feel those emotions is absolutely unrealistic. It's like expecting a dog not to bark.
Right, emotion is part of what makes us human. But in Lucas's galaxy, things are different.

After some thought, I would say that it is impossible to use both sides of the force. Because one relies on emotion, the other rejects it. But this doesn't meant that there isn't a entirely different force philosophy. Whoever alluded to Jolee Bindo brought forth a excellent point: love can save you, but if you handle it poorly, it can damn you. Simple yet beautiful words.

As for what the past few previous posts regarding the comparison of Jedi and Sith that have never fought, you're right and I agree with you. All I've been trying to say is that Revan is in the same ball park as the men I named. I've also argued, like you've said, that there is no way for people to indefinately say that Bane would beat Revan. They never fought so we'll never know. The only sure victors in any fight are Luke and Sidious, and this is because Lucas said so.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.10.2012 , 11:40 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Right, emotion is part of what makes us human. But in Lucas's galaxy, things are different.
No, Lucas' galaxy is not different, not when it comes to people and emotion. And the reason is basic story telling. The reason the original trilogy resonated so much with people and why the prequels did not was this basic concept. The audience can only connect with characters that convey humanity, even if the characters are not human. Think about Pixar's Wall-E or the various beloved animated animal characters. We need characters who are like us in some way. Through emotion even if not appearance. The characters in the OT were like us. They had emotions. Luke was a small town kid who wanted to get away from the family farm and see the world (or galaxy in his case). The scene where he is looking at the double sunset on Tatooine with John Williams' score in the background is so iconic because it conveys emotion with no words. When the only family he knows is murdered by the Empire, we can empathize. Luke is the protagonist and we experience the galaxy through him. He is emotional throughout the original trilogy and the central reason we care about all the main characters is the mutual friendship they share. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewy and the rest cared for each other. That's why we were rooting so hard for them.

The reason the characters in the prequels were so flat was because they didn't take this approach. Who is the protagonist of Phantom Menace? It's not Obi-wan. He's barely in half the movie. Is it Anakin? Qui-gon? Anakin is a snot-nosed kid who no one over the age of 10 can identify with. Qui-gon is some emotionless monk. We don't connect with him. He has no real personality. Obi-wan, Anakin and Padme seem to fill the protagonist role interchangeably in the next two movies. They are rarely allowed to express real emotion, and when they do, it comes across in the form of romantic schlock between Anakin and Padme that is utterly ridiculous or Anakin's whining sessions. The only real moment I cared about the characters in the prequels was in Episode 3 when Obi-wan is struggling with having to kill Anakin, Anakin tells him he hates him, and Obi wan says "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you." It was maybe the best line in the whole prequel trilogy and made us care for once about the characters precisely because they DID show emotion. Hell, even the droids get emotional in Star Wars.

Jedi aren't robots. They have emotions. Obi-wan had an attachment to Anakin. Luke had attachments. Anakin had attachments. The only time Star Wars has failed to connect with its audience is when Lucas has tried to present characters that truly didn't show emotion or showed it poorly. We can't connect to that. We can connect with characters who are emotional beings that have to overcome the base and negative emotions we all experience to avoid becoming the enemy. This was what Return of the Jedi was all about. Luke had to control his emotions, not deny that they existed.

The prequel-era approach that has also been forwarded in the EU quite often totally misses the boat here. "There is no emotion" is utter nonsense. Without emotion, what's the point? The lesson is controlling your emotions, not denying them or suppressing them. If the prequel-era Jedi order had understood this, Anakin might have learned to deal with his emotions in some way other than slaughtering children. If the KOTOR/SWTOR-era Jedi understood this, maybe you wouldn't have had scores of Jedi turning traitor and murdering their former allies.

Temeluchus's Avatar


Temeluchus
10.10.2012 , 03:20 PM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Would people please stop calling Revan a Jedi or a Sith for that matter, he hasn't been a Jedi since before he splintered off and went to war, he was never a Sith because there were varying complexities to how he became Darth Revan, simply put, not wilfully at all, but through the Emperor, when he was freed of his mental choke hold, he actually believed he'd done such through his own accord.

Revan is Revan, not a Jedi and not a Sith, regardless of titles.
Whoa,whoa,whoa, wait what? The LS ending of KOTOR is canon so isn't Revan redeemed and later goes on to become a Jedi Master, impregnate Bastila and then goes off to find the Sith Empire?

I never considered Revan a true Sith Lord in my understanding of them, but I was under the impression that he had become a Jedi again before leaving.
"Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night.

Wolfninjajedi's Avatar


Wolfninjajedi
10.10.2012 , 03:34 PM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
No, Lucas' galaxy is not different, not when it comes to people and emotion. And the reason is basic story telling. The reason the original trilogy resonated so much with people and why the prequels did not was this basic concept. The audience can only connect with characters that convey humanity, even if the characters are not human. Think about Pixar's Wall-E or the various beloved animated animal characters. We need characters who are like us in some way. Through emotion even if not appearance. The characters in the OT were like us. They had emotions. Luke was a small town kid who wanted to get away from the family farm and see the world (or galaxy in his case). The scene where he is looking at the double sunset on Tatooine with John Williams' score in the background is so iconic because it conveys emotion with no words. When the only family he knows is murdered by the Empire, we can empathize. Luke is the protagonist and we experience the galaxy through him. He is emotional throughout the original trilogy and the central reason we care about all the main characters is the mutual friendship they share. Han, Luke, Leia, Chewy and the rest cared for each other. That's why we were rooting so hard for them.

The reason the characters in the prequels were so flat was because they didn't take this approach. Who is the protagonist of Phantom Menace? It's not Obi-wan. He's barely in half the movie. Is it Anakin? Qui-gon? Anakin is a snot-nosed kid who no one over the age of 10 can identify with. Qui-gon is some emotionless monk. We don't connect with him. He has no real personality. Obi-wan, Anakin and Padme seem to fill the protagonist role interchangeably in the next two movies. They are rarely allowed to express real emotion, and when they do, it comes across in the form of romantic schlock between Anakin and Padme that is utterly ridiculous or Anakin's whining sessions. The only real moment I cared about the characters in the prequels was in Episode 3 when Obi-wan is struggling with having to kill Anakin, Anakin tells him he hates him, and Obi wan says "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you." It was maybe the best line in the whole prequel trilogy and made us care for once about the characters precisely because they DID show emotion. Hell, even the droids get emotional in Star Wars.

Jedi aren't robots. They have emotions. Obi-wan had an attachment to Anakin. Luke had attachments. Anakin had attachments. The only time Star Wars has failed to connect with its audience is when Lucas has tried to present characters that truly didn't show emotion or showed it poorly. We can't connect to that. We can connect with characters who are emotional beings that have to overcome the base and negative emotions we all experience to avoid becoming the enemy. This was what Return of the Jedi was all about. Luke had to control his emotions, not deny that they existed.

The prequel-era approach that has also been forwarded in the EU quite often totally misses the boat here. "There is no emotion" is utter nonsense. Without emotion, what's the point? The lesson is controlling your emotions, not denying them or suppressing them. If the prequel-era Jedi order had understood this, Anakin might have learned to deal with his emotions in some way other than slaughtering children. If the KOTOR/SWTOR-era Jedi understood this, maybe you wouldn't have had scores of Jedi turning traitor and murdering their former allies.
When did the PT jedi ever say they denyed their emotions? The only thing closest to that, which isn't really saying it is

"Be mindful of your feelings."

Besides....if emotion was really denied in the PT, then Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan failed at being jedi because they all felt emotion.
"There is one lesson you've yet to learn. How to become one with the Force!"
―Cin Drallig to Darth Vader

Maucs the Tauntaun King, former SWG player.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.10.2012 , 04:42 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolfninjajedi View Post
When did the PT jedi ever say they denyed their emotions? The only thing closest to that, which isn't really saying it is

"Be mindful of your feelings."

Besides....if emotion was really denied in the PT, then Mace, Yoda, and Obi-Wan failed at being jedi because they all felt emotion.
Especially Mace Windu. Mace Windu was always on the line between Light and Dark. Emotion was a very important part to his Vaapad form.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.10.2012 , 04:51 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Especially Mace Windu. Mace Windu was always on the line between Light and Dark. Emotion was a very important part to his Vaapad form.
But look at anakin. He was basically told "let go of all feelings and attachment[and all will be better]" Basically what he got told by Yoda.

All it did, was drive him further and further towards the dark side. Instead of just saying "just let it all go and be a non-feeling entity" should of let them have families and just teach them how to deal with love and how not to let it be twisted.

If he'd been instructed to do that, allowed to love padme openly without fear of being found out and removed for what he'd been born to do, he probably would of not fallen to the Dark Side and the visions of Padme dying probably would not of come to pass since he MADE them happen by going to the dark side and causing all that happened.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
finished all chapter 3 arcs. Currently JK, Sith Sorc, and Agent to 65

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
10.10.2012 , 04:58 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
But look at anakin. He was basically told "let go of all feelings and attachment[and all will be better]" Basically what he got told by Yoda.

All it did, was drive him further and further towards the dark side. Instead of just saying "just let it all go and be a non-feeling entity" should of let them have families and just teach them how to deal with love and how not to let it be twisted.

If he'd been instructed to do that, allowed to love padme openly without fear of being found out and removed for what he'd been born to do, he probably would of not fallen to the Dark Side and the visions of Padme dying probably would not of come to pass since he MADE them happen by going to the dark side and causing all that happened.
Thats because Anakin had a huge amount of feelings. And he was the Chosen One. And he had the visions of Padme dying pre-darkside..
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."