Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Respect Revan


RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.11.2012 , 06:22 PM | #131
Keep in mind that this isn't only my opinion. This is the main theme of the saga. The reason Luke saves the day and redeems not only his father, but the Jedi and the entire galaxy as well is because he was not blinded the way the Jedi Council was. This is why he takes his Jedi Order in the opposite direction.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 06:31 PM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
Keep in mind that this isn't only my opinion. This is the main theme of the saga. The reason Luke saves the day and redeems not only his father, but the Jedi and the entire galaxy as well is because he was not blinded the way the Jedi Council was. This is why he takes his Jedi Order in the opposite direction.
I understand that. And I agree with the NJO's stance on love. But I also understand why the PT Jedi believed what they did. I know it is the main theme of the Star Wars saga, which is why I called love a double-edged sword. It was a factor in Anakin's fall as well as his redemption. Anakin's fall came about through a combination of several factors. His love was one of them.

Anyway, we've debated this topic enough and derailed this thread enough. We've made both of our points clear. If you agree with some of what I've said fine, but if not we can agree to disagree and move on.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.11.2012 , 06:33 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
What is your proof that they were Palpatine's manipulations? Just asking because I suspected it, but haven't found anything to support it (to my recollection).

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I agree with your position on love. I'm merely speaking from the point of view of the Jedi. I rarely disagree with the Jedi, but I do disagree with their position on love. But I do understand what their position is. I'm one of those guys that sees things from all points of view. And I understand why the Jedi believe what they do when it comes to love.
I'm not saying he directly caused them, though it is very posible. You have to recognize what Yoda says about visions. "Always in motion the future is." Think about the motion of events that caused Anakin's fall.

1. He falls in love with Padme, but must marry her in secret because of the Jedi's rules.
2. Palpatine senses Anakin's feelings of alienation from the Jedi Council and uses that to get close to him.
3. Anakin has visions of Padme's death in child birth (which only occurs b/c of events further down the chain).
4. Palpatine somehow knows of these visions (maybe he knows b/c he is causing them maybe not...it doesn't really matter) and convinces Anakin that the dark side is the only possible way to save Padme.
5. Anakin chooses the dark path and this choice causes Padme's death (thus creating the visions in step 3).

If he had not been forced to keep his relationship secret he would have had many many options for who to seek council from when he had visions. Since he did not know Palpatine was a force user it would make almost no sense for him to listen to Palpatine about this subject when he could get advice from Obi Wan, Mace Windu, or Yoda. It only makes sense in the story the way it is because he has no other options.

Palpatine never could have manipulated him the way that he did & then he never would have fell & then the visions would never have happened in the first place. Simply put, if the Jedi's rules against marriage had not existed the visions never would have happened.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 06:40 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
I'm not saying he directly caused them, though it is very posible. You have to recognize what Yoda says about visions. "Always in motion the future is." Think about the motion of events that caused Anakin's fall.

1. He falls in love with Padme, but must marry her in secret because of the Jedi's rules.
2. Palpatine senses Anakin's feelings of alienation from the Jedi Council and uses that to get close to him.
3. Anakin has visions of Padme's death in child birth (which only occurs b/c of events further down the chain).
4. Palpatine somehow knows of these visions (maybe he knows b/c he is causing them maybe not...it doesn't really matter) and convinces Anakin that the dark side is the only possible way to save Padme.
5. Anakin chooses the dark path and this choice causes Padme's death (thus creating the visions in step 3).

If he had not been forced to keep his relationship secret he would have had many many options for who to seek council from when he had visions. Since he did not know Palpatine was a force user it would make almost no sense for him to listen to Palpatine about this subject when he could get advice from Obi Wan, Mace Windu, or Yoda. It only makes sense in the story the way it is because he has no other options.

Palpatine never could have manipulated him the way that he did & then he never would have fell & then the visions would never have happened in the first place. Simply put, if the Jedi's rules against marriage had not existed the visions never would have happened.
A very logical assesment. One thing though. I think Captain Panaka or Typho told him about the marriage. Not sure though, but I do remember reading it from somewhere. Anakin actually did go to see Yoda about the visions, but kept Padme's name out of it. Yoda then said to let go of everything he fears to lose. Then Palpatine tells Anakin that the Dark Side can help him. So I feel that Anakin would have confided in Palpatine anyway.

But whatever. We've derailed this thread enough and had ourselves a good debate. Good fun and all that.

EDIT: Final thought. I agree with you on what you've been saying. All I've been saying is that I understand why the Jedi believe what they do. Anyway, I think we've put our points across well enough and made a good debate out of it.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.11.2012 , 07:23 PM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
The problem is that the Original Trilogy very directly makes the point that Love is a good thing. Your position isn't in line with the message of the film. It can only go on for eternity if you refuse to accept the main theme of the movies which is that love is redemptive.

I'm sorry, but you are just incorrect on this point. The events of the Star Wars movies prove that the Jedi (and you) are incorrect in believing that love is dangerous or a weakness for a force user.

I once again point out that love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall. Fear was the responsible emotion and fear is in opposition to love.

The only way to arrive at your position is to totally and completely miss the entire point of the movies. It's like believing that the story of the tortoise & the hare is a cautionary tale warning us of the dangers of taking it slow and steady during a race. The story is telling us the opposite of what you seem to have taken from it.
Love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall? Think about it. What was he afraid of? Losing Padme! BTW fear is not the opposition of love. Hate is the opposit of love (imo).

Yes, part of the movie's point is that love is a good and redemptive thing. I not only agree with this because of the events of the movies, but because of my spiritual beliefs.

But to deny that love CAN cloud your judgement is total bogus. You can look to the movies or real life to proove this. They'll both tell you the same thing I'm saying.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.11.2012 , 07:25 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I understand that. And I agree with the NJO's stance on love. But I also understand why the PT Jedi believed what they did. I know it is the main theme of the Star Wars saga, which is why I called love a double-edged sword. It was a factor in Anakin's fall as well as his redemption. Anakin's fall came about through a combination of several factors. His love was one of them.

Anyway, we've debated this topic enough and derailed this thread enough. We've made both of our points clear. If you agree with some of what I've said fine, but if not we can agree to disagree and move on.
Yes. This thread has derailed, crashed into a building, and exploded into oblivion. lol

No offence, but some of you guys are TERIBBLE at staying on topic. lol

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 07:36 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Yes. This thread has derailed, crashed into a building, and exploded into oblivion. lol

No offence, but some of you guys are TERIBBLE at staying on topic. lol
Yeah I suck at staying on topic. That's because I like to respond to the points that people have against my own points. I like a good debate and that derails topics. It gets a little out of hand sometimes and I try to find a way to end a debate peacefully.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.12.2012 , 12:23 AM | #138
I don't understand why you aren't getting this. No one is saying the prequel or Old Republic Jedi didn't frown upon attachments or love. The point is that they were wrong for doing this, which is why the policy changed after ROTJ. The movies, the central focus of the trilogy despite what some fanboys of the novels like to believe, teach that attachments are not a path to the dark side. Failure to control or deal with your emotions is a path to the dark side. I mean, a pancake shortage can lead to the dark side if you have rage issues and really like pancakes. The padawan system can and did lead many to the dark side when they had conflicts with their masters or formed bonds that led to feelings they couldn't control. The issue is the Jedi's ability to control and deal with his or her emotions. You simply can't prevent people from having emotions, so you have to train people in how to cope with those emotions and hopefully seek council when they are having problems. Clearly, that's not what the prequel-era Jedi did, and look what happened.

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
10.12.2012 , 02:17 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
I don't understand why you aren't getting this. No one is saying the prequel or Old Republic Jedi didn't frown upon attachments or love. The point is that they were wrong for doing this, which is why the policy changed after ROTJ. The movies, the central focus of the trilogy despite what some fanboys of the novels like to believe, teach that attachments are not a path to the dark side. Failure to control or deal with your emotions is a path to the dark side. I mean, a pancake shortage can lead to the dark side if you have rage issues and really like pancakes. The padawan system can and did lead many to the dark side when they had conflicts with their masters or formed bonds that led to feelings they couldn't control. The issue is the Jedi's ability to control and deal with his or her emotions. You simply can't prevent people from having emotions, so you have to train people in how to cope with those emotions and hopefully seek council when they are having problems. Clearly, that's not what the prequel-era Jedi did, and look what happened.
Im guessing Darth Baras had this pancake problem you speak of?

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
10.12.2012 , 02:43 PM | #140
With Revan im only going to say my two cents Revan at full power (not Foundry revan since he clearly was a madman and drained from 300 years of fighting off the emperor's control) is clearly stronger than any member of the dark council or any other sith in the empire. The only time the Emperor experienced fear of dying was when he fought Revan at full power (this is coming from the Revan novel). During Act 2 of JK story
Spoiler
Dark Council members are the strongest sith in the empire and The Emperor's Wrath is stronger than most if not all of them. Ik after i post this il get "what about the Dread Masters" cmon there are 6 of them and there only that powerful when they are together which is stated in their codex. My point is where the emperor has easily killed multiple dark council members at once (which he also did in the Revan novel) he had struggled in his 2nd fight with Revan. Just my opinion using facts.