Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Respect Revan


SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.11.2012 , 11:17 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's exactly why the Jedi discourage love. Yes, I agree that it is dumb but I'm talking from their point of view. Love indirectly leads to the Dark Side by causing emotions that can lead to it. Love can cause certain emotions that lead to the Dark Side. Emotions like fear, anger, etc. Love itself is a good thing, but many do not see the big picture like the Jedi do. The Jedi understand that love itself is a good emotion, but what it can lead to can be very bad.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I understand why they take that stance, but part of me disagrees with it.
It's not a matter of disagreeing. The policy was wrong. It was proven wrong by the movies which is why the post-ROTJ Jedi Order did not continue the policy.

The idea that love leads, even indirectly, to the dark side led to the near destruction of the Jedi, Anakin's fall and Palpatine's rise to power. The rejection of that idea led to Anakin's redemption, Palpatine's defeat and saved the galaxy from the dark side.

The no attachments policy was demonstrably proven incorrect.

I brought this up after people made comments that emotion is not part of the light side and that love leads to the dark side. Those statements are provably false.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.11.2012 , 11:27 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
It's not a matter of disagreeing. The policy was wrong. It was proven wrong by the movies which is why the post-ROTJ Jedi Order did not continue the policy.

The idea that love leads, even indirectly, to the dark side led to the near destruction of the Jedi, Anakin's fall and Palpatine's rise to power. The rejection of that idea led to Anakin's redemption, Palpatine's defeat and saved the galaxy from the dark side.

The no attachments policy was demonstrably proven incorrect.

I brought this up after people made comments that emotion is not part of the light side and that love leads to the dark side. Those statements are provably false.
False? Really? Controled love may be part of the lightside, but it wasn't part of what the prequel Jedi believed nor what the OR Jedi believed. That's canon. Uncontroled emotions, of any kind, are dangerous. All Jedi believe that. However the NJO believes that controlled love and compassion are good things and important to a Jedi. And yes, Love CAN lead to the darkside. Love is a good think, but you can't allow it to displace your judgement, which it can, even here in the real world.

You're right that the no attachment policy was proven wrong, but regardless, that's what the Jedi of old believed. And they were partially right because it does and has lead men to the darkside.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 11:46 AM | #123
Love is a topic we can talk in circles. My position on it? I agree and disagree with the Jedi on their stance. The Jedi Order understood that love, while good at times, can and most likely will lead to uncontrollable emotions. Love can also hinder rational thinking. Look at Luke Skywalker. When he found out Mara Jade had died, he was flooded with emotion. Emotion that clouded his judgment and it prevented him from seeing the truth. On this part I agree with the Jedi.

What I disagree with is that the Jedi do not teach their students how to control these emotions. Well I can't say that. They do teach their students how to control these emotions, but they don't lay out the consequences correctly. But there is really no way to prevent the loss of a loved one from impacting you emotionally. I believe that is what the Jedi try to avoid.

Like I said, this discussion could go on for eternity. We've all made our point so we should just move on.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
10.11.2012 , 12:06 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Love is a topic we can talk in circles. My position on it? I agree and disagree with the Jedi on their stance. The Jedi Order understood that love, while good at times, can and most likely will lead to uncontrollable emotions. Love can also hinder rational thinking. Look at Luke Skywalker. When he found out Mara Jade had died, he was flooded with emotion. Emotion that clouded his judgment and it prevented him from seeing the truth. On this part I agree with the Jedi.

What I disagree with is that the Jedi do not teach their students how to control these emotions. Well I can't say that. They do teach their students how to control these emotions, but they don't lay out the consequences correctly. But there is really no way to prevent the loss of a loved one from impacting you emotionally. I believe that is what the Jedi try to avoid.

Like I said, this discussion could go on for eternity. We've all made our point so we should just move on.
Yes, let's move on.

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.11.2012 , 05:55 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Love is a topic we can talk in circles. My position on it? I agree and disagree with the Jedi on their stance. The Jedi Order understood that love, while good at times, can and most likely will lead to uncontrollable emotions. Love can also hinder rational thinking. Look at Luke Skywalker. When he found out Mara Jade had died, he was flooded with emotion. Emotion that clouded his judgment and it prevented him from seeing the truth. On this part I agree with the Jedi.

What I disagree with is that the Jedi do not teach their students how to control these emotions. Well I can't say that. They do teach their students how to control these emotions, but they don't lay out the consequences correctly. But there is really no way to prevent the loss of a loved one from impacting you emotionally. I believe that is what the Jedi try to avoid.

Like I said, this discussion could go on for eternity. We've all made our point so we should just move on.
The problem is that the Original Trilogy very directly makes the point that Love is a good thing. Your position isn't in line with the message of the film. It can only go on for eternity if you refuse to accept the main theme of the movies which is that love is redemptive.

I'm sorry, but you are just incorrect on this point. The events of the Star Wars movies prove that the Jedi (and you) are incorrect in believing that love is dangerous or a weakness for a force user.

I once again point out that love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall. Fear was the responsible emotion and fear is in opposition to love.

The only way to arrive at your position is to totally and completely miss the entire point of the movies. It's like believing that the story of the tortoise & the hare is a cautionary tale warning us of the dangers of taking it slow and steady during a race. The story is telling us the opposite of what you seem to have taken from it.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 06:01 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
The problem is that the Original Trilogy very directly makes the point that Love is a good thing. Your position isn't in line with the message of the film. It can only go on for eternity if you refuse to accept the main theme of the movies which is that love is redemptive.

I'm sorry, but you are just incorrect on this point. The events of the Star Wars movies prove that the Jedi (and you) are incorrect in believing that love is dangerous or a weakness for a force user.

I once again point out that love had absolutely nothing to do with Anakin's fall. Fear was the responsible emotion and fear is in opposition to love.

The only way to arrive at your position is to totally and completely miss the entire point of the movies. It's like believing that the story of the tortoise & the hare is a cautionary tale warning us of the dangers of taking it slow and steady during a race. The story is telling us the opposite of what you seem to have taken from it.
Ask yourself this. Where did that fear come from? His fear was born from his love of Padme. I did not miss the point of the movies. I am speaking from the viewpoint of the Jedi. I agree with them partially, but I do not fully agree with them on rejecting love. As I have said, love is a double-edged sword. It condemned Anakin to servitude to the Sith, but later saved him.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.11.2012 , 06:06 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Ask yourself this. Where did that fear come from?
From the Jedi Council's rules against marriage that forced Anakin to hide his relationship with Padme thus allowing Palpatine to manipulate him.

In short: it came from the very position you are espousing.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 06:09 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
From the Jedi Council's rules against marriage that forced Anakin to hide his relationship with Padme thus allowing Palpatine to manipulate him.

In short: it came from the very position you are espousing.
Anakin would have still had those visions. It was the visions that caused his fear. Not the Jedi Council. It was the Force itself that caused his fear.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.11.2012 , 06:17 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Anakin would have still had those visions. It was the visions that caused his fear. Not the Jedi Council. It was the Force itself that caused his fear.
Wrong again.

The visions were a result of Palpatine's manipulations.

Follow me here:

If Anakin had been allowed to be open about his relationship he would never had been in the position of being manipulated...he never would have seen Palpatine as his only option...he never would have fallen...Padme never would have gone into shock after being choked by Anakin....Anakin never would have had the visions in the first place.

The mistake that gave Palpatine the opening to work was the Jedi Council's rules that forced his relationship underground. The chain of events that led to Anakin's fall would never had been possible if they had not made the very mistake you are making.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.11.2012 , 06:21 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
Wrong again.

The visions were a result of Palpatine's manipulations.

Follow me here:

If Anakin had been allowed to be open about his relationship he would never had been in the position of being manipulated...he never would have seen Palpatine as his only option...he never would have fallen...Padme never would have gone into shock after being choked by Anakin....Anakin never would have had the visions in the first place.

The mistake that gave Palpatine the opening to work was the Jedi Council's rules that forced his relationship underground. The chain of events that led to Anakin's fall would never had been possible if they had not made the very mistake you are making.
What is your proof that they were Palpatine's manipulations? Just asking because I suspected it, but haven't found anything to support it (to my recollection).

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I agree with your position on love. I'm merely speaking from the point of view of the Jedi. I rarely disagree with the Jedi, but I do disagree with their position on love. But I do understand what their position is. I'm one of those guys that sees things from all points of view. And I understand why the Jedi believe what they do when it comes to love.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus