Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer

how to:Successful Operations

Songwhistle's Avatar

10.04.2012 , 07:07 PM | #1
Hi guys

I've now been doing Operations since release and i've noticed a lot of different things during that time which might be usefull. Much of it is common knowledge however if ignored it can easily make your raid a whole lot more tedious and prone to wipes.

First of all lets talk about group setup by this i mean that going with dual healing commando setups doesn't really work well as they would lack decent AOE heals for the raid.

So viable healing setups would be dual sages which is good for fights with heavy raid damage. sage /commando setup is a good with limited raid damage but high spike damage - fx a commando can outheal kephess hm pre 60% without other tank taking off the debuff. no other class that i am aware off can do this. sage / scoundrel setup is really great as well and prolly a more all around setup that can deal with more raid damage than the sage / commando setup but lack the better tank healing from the commando.

Melee wise you want to avoid having more than 2 classes - yes i know it is possible but as a general rule of thumb melee often take more damage than ranged dps thus a strain is put on healers. Just so we are clear on this there are only 3 ranged classes, sage, commando and gunslinger. a vanguard, scoundrel and balance specced shadow are all still melee in the sense most of their damage is coming from abilities that have 10 yard requirements.

So which melee setups works well. We have often used vanguards for melee however if you have a vanguard tank in the raid you are not really adding anything to the raid in the sense of buffs/debuffs even though they do amazing damage they are redundant compared to other classes.

We found that using a dual sentinel for the inspiration works quite well but also a guardian sentinel setup works well because you might have one less inspiration but in return you have armor debuffs and a possible offtank with taunt.

Ranged dps wise you really want a commando for the armor debuff along with ability to off-heal. many commandoes do not use this however it can determine a fight in many cases. Not to mention their sheer amount of AOE abilities is simply the best in the game.

So if you are going with the guardian / sentinel setup you only really need 1 commando leaving a space for either a sage or a gunslinger. Though sage dps tends to be lower than the gunslingers the sage brings more to operations versatility wise. Rescue is prolly the most unused ability in operations however it is a great tool for helping raid members drop threat or move out of difficult situations.

If you are using the dual sentinel setup you are probably best off going with dual commando setup or commando / gunslinger for the second armor debuff.

Now lets look at tanks - Tank types are really not that important provided the tanks are using proper relics depending on the fight. This means a tank going with a matrix shard or a pvp relic that has no on click use is simply in most cases not very knowledgeable about his class or hasn't figured out how gear it. This might sound a bit tough because i see a lot of tanks doing this. i know they do it to reduce overall damage which is good but tanks dont die from average damage taken - they do however often die from spike damage which they didn't use defensive cooldowns, addrenals or relics for. This in part also comes from experience of playing.

We have recently been using the sage / commando healing setup meaning that the commando's healing abilities goes well together with vanguards because their damage intake is not as spiky as for example the shadow so we have been using a dual vanguard tank setup which has worked brilliantly.

However if going with a sage / scoundrel healing setup i would advise using a vanguard / shadow setup because the shadow tanks can be very powerful in some fights.

As for the guardian we have mainly used them as offtanks. They have probably the best mitigation in the game however their long defensive cooldowns make them less used because there are many fights where you do tank switches and that makes the defensive cooldowns a lot easier. They are still the best tanks for single targets - for AOE tanking i wouldn't recommend them because most end up running around confused trying to pick up threat. For this reason we have simply dismissed them however this is a minor thing as the guardian is still VERY viable.

Now that we have covered the overall setup we should look at the overall intentions of the raid - if you are there to have fun and do not mind wiping or not clearing ec hm fx in 1 hour then by all means ignore what i say next. If you want a successful raid group that can pwn everything that you meet it is important that you stick to your raid members only playing on their main characters - for one they will always play it better and are less prone to mistakes. I know that once you get to the point where some of your raid members have full campaign or whatever the case might be they might not be prone to want to go because there is no loot for them. However this is where you or your raid leader needs to step in and simply state "well do you prefer clearing a getting gear for the group or letting the other 7 people wipe all evening because you already got what you wanted from them" - this is a pure egoistic way of looking at it and it will only hurt your raid. We have done this to solve it. we have alt runs and main progression runs. and all alt's are free to pug whatever they want. if their alt should be well enough geared at some point to be switched for a main you need to have him/her tested so you know how well that player will perform.

Bringing in new poeple to the raid group. Make sure they have their dps tested with a damage meter so you know what to expect. If they aren't a dps then check through gear and test them on an alt run first. Make sure they have their datacrons in order along with all their augments. In many cases it helps the newcomer if you sit them down with another person from the raid in the same role that can go through gear, tips and overall knowledge.

Dont undervalue the datacrons - they are simply the best. if everyone is missing the republic fleet datacron with +10 to all stats then your basically missing out on 1 awesome items that could be boosting your raid. so take the time to make a run before or after run for the datacrons your group might need.

So what happens when all of this is done and you still wipe? make sure you identify the problem and talk with the person and figure out what is making it impossible for that one person to do his job? is the dps taking threat which in turn might make it difficult for the tank? is the tank not using relic, adrenals, and def. cd's correctly making healing too intensive. Identify the problem and if you cant then check tactics online to make sure you are not missing something important.

And remember wiping multiple times on a boss is ok as long as you can see the mistakes being made are being corrected and applied to increase chance of boss kill. So after wiping make sure you mention to the raid. good to see the interupts were much better handled. good job on that. These minor things might not mean much to you to say but they do motivate people and might mean the difference between having a careless raid group to having a highly motivated group of people. It is also important not to do the blame game. it is okay to fail at an interrupt as long as you are aware of the problem and make sure it will be handled on next attempt.

Interface setting can help you in a large way - fx getting use of the focus target is very useful along with target's target.

Once your group has been going a while and the tanks have begun chain pulling and communication works well within the group make sure you distribute the roles you want done to the raid so you don't sit and have to mark 6 different mobs on every pull. - let people in the group mark what they will CC and let the tanks fly through the content - just make sure they always check they have at least one healer present on trash and enough dps ready to kill them.

We have with great success given all that can CC their own mark and assist so they can simply mark what they want to CC and thereby be more responsible for how the fight happens. a raid member knowing that he has a big impact on whether a fight goes smoothly is a motivated raid member.

I can also highly recommend that tanks and other people marking mobs have shortcuts for it so you dont have too much broken CC.

As i said much of this is well known however majority of pug raids and guild raids often fail due to a combination of lack of a steady group, alt being allowed in, and bad raid setup. Well i hope this will help people out there or as a minimum i've given you stuff to discuss or think about.

Banegio's Avatar

10.04.2012 , 07:43 PM | #2
Some good tips for new raid group.

Did a TLDR for you (not saying I 100% agree with everything) .....

Ideal group composition:
tank vanguard
tank vanguard / shadow
mdps sentinel
mdps sentinel / guardian
rdps commando
rdps gunslinger /sage / commando
heal sage
heal sage / commando / scoundrel

Other notes
* datacrons for extra stats
* communicates
* learn from wipes = progression
* mark cc / target (use shortcut)
* setup focus target / target's target

grallmate's Avatar

10.04.2012 , 08:22 PM | #3
I've got to disagree with a bit of what you said. In terms of composition, dual Vanguard is one of the weakest setups for tanking, especially if there is much elemental or internal damage going out. IMO the best tank combination is a Guardian and a Shadow. Requires more attention from the healers (and more skill) but has more movement, better CDs and can deal with elemental/internal damage much better. Both tanks also take less damage than a VG it is just spikier. It is also clear you aren't a tank. Passive relics are better for most fights. Where a fight has predictable high damage phases (Toth/Zorn and Foreman Crusher spring to mind), a clicky relic is superior. I like the shield/absorb one because it is less spiky but the defence one generally mitigates more.

The best healer combo IMO is Sage and Scoundrel. Dual Sages suffer from the shared debuff on bubble while dual Commandos suffer when it comes to AoE healing. Sage & Scoundrel combines excellent party healing, superb burst healing and the Sage bubble to really cover all bases. In a 16 man I would definitely add in a Commando as the tank healer as well.

I also disagree that Commando is better than 'Slinger in terms of DPS utility. Slinger can put 20% armour reduction on the target in one CD, brings the party shield, entrench to avoid forced movement and better defensive CDs. They have less AoE, but they have XS Freighter Flyby which (IMO) more than makes up for it.

It is important to note that if you want people to mark their own CCs, it should be done BEFORE combat and that everyone will need to be an Ops Lieutenant to be able to mark. Stealth CCs also need to be done before combat starts. I would also recommend never pulling trash without atleast 7/8 players there, especially in EC. Further, when CC is broken, it should be done by the tank so they have (more) aggro and those mobs don't run straight to the healers. Tanks should also mark the focus fire target, and ideally move it throughout the fight.

Ephesia's Avatar

10.05.2012 , 04:46 AM | #4
I too disagree with your views on tanks. A Guardian / Shadow approach imo is better than a Vanguard / Shadow or 2 Vanguards. Guardians have better defensive cooldowns and can mitigate more dmg, they have less hp than Vanguards but less chances of getting a lot of dmg.

Your opinion in relics is also misleading. Clicky relics are useful for phases that you expect to take high damage such as Kephess last phase. Other than that passive relics are better. The shield amplification one especially shines because it procs very often - coupled with War Hero relic.
Ephesia, Level 55 Jedi Guardian
Tomb of Freedon Nadd (EU)
Member of Catalyst

Vankris's Avatar

10.05.2012 , 06:08 AM | #5
One who knows the enemy and knows himself will not be in danger in a hundred battles.
One who does not know the enemy but knows himself will sometimes win, sometimes lose.
One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself will be in danger in every battle.

The art of war, Sun Tzu
Shadow | Kinetic Combat