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A simple fix for PVP, why are more people not advocating this?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
A simple fix for PVP, why are more people not advocating this?

To-le's Avatar


To-le
10.03.2012 , 09:57 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
correct me if i'm wrong, but comms are awarded in rated WZs the same way the are awarded in reg WZs. the difference is that the comms are ranked comms. that's the premise I'm operating on. I've lost my share of ranked and never got so few as 20-something comms; that's for certain.

regarding the idea of filling rated wzs with under geared teams, I don't think there's a large enough pvp population left for that. unless all regs were secretly q'd for rated.
I agree with the coms statement. Only once did I get rolled in a ranked and get 30ish coms. Otherwise you normally get a little over 40 which makes it a better rate of return than doing normals if the queues always popped.

Sweeet's Avatar


Sweeet
10.03.2012 , 10:00 AM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
correct me if i'm wrong, but comms are awarded in rated WZs the same way the are awarded in reg WZs. the difference is that the comms are ranked comms. that's the premise I'm operating on. I've lost my share of ranked and never got so few as 20-something comms; that's for certain.

regarding the idea of filling rated wzs with under geared teams, I don't think there's a large enough pvp population left for that. unless all regs were secretly q'd for rated.
Well I'm just going on what guild members have told me. The few times they've managed to get into a Ranked they did get rolled and were left with about 25 commendations a peice.

It would be easy to fill rated if it was lucrative enough, which is the problem, at present it's not!

Soljin's Avatar


Soljin
10.03.2012 , 10:04 AM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Sweeet View Post
The issue is not brackets, the issue is WH gear is not accessible enough. The PVP is actually great in this game, and people want to play and be competitive. The trouble is, at the moment they can't. It's probably the largest contributing factor as to why so many people have quit. The lengthy grind to WH whilst getting your butt handed to you over and over and over is just terrible. It's actually the worst grind for PvP gear I've ever experienced in an MMO, it really is no wonder why so many people have quit.
I think the grind is on par if not better then Most MMO's I have played...I actually think having a PvP stat is a game buster TBH...But that said I dont think ToR is worse then any other game. Problem with ToR's system is the Trade up thing they have...They need to drop the link so you dont have to trade in a piece to get the next teir...Most games its tied to a rank, then is more costly to purchase..Same thing just done differently. Thing about ToR is you dont have to run Arena, or PvP in the game for months to qualify for the gear...You just have to buy each teir and trade up.....So it does benefit those with more time in the seat...But it doesnt offer more powerful gear to people that run Rateds etc...Which is a good thing.

Now with the new Recruit set its clear they are trying to limit the gap. Maybe not there yet...Honestly IMO they could lower the cost of PvP gear..No skin off my back I have toons with all levels of gear....Including a full Opt. WH geared Jugg.... Since I dont care for a PvP specific stat to begin with they could give WH away for all I care...I want PvP not a gear grind...If I want that Ill PvE.
Born on Bria.
Clone Zerging Since 2003!

To-le's Avatar


To-le
10.03.2012 , 10:08 AM | #34
I would like to throw in my 2 cents as a fully geared WH. I already have the elite mainhand and about 500 ranked coms short of the new offhand. On the same token I have focused on playing one toon since my early access during launch and should be considered a casual player.

I would love to do ranked wz's but have trouble finding 8 quality players to group with. Not well geared, but rather smart players. When I find a group, the ranked queues on my server might not pop but 1 game a hour some days. Even though a lot of use would rather do ranked, there isn't always enough peeps queueing to keep the well geared players out of normal WZ's. So we end up queueing regulars with our two 4 man group premades. Most of the time the games are not challenging unless we get 4 other players with 14k health. This should be considered in keeping well geared out of normal wz's. The bone needs to be bigger to make peeps queue ranked, or something needs to be changed so it doesn't require 8. I like the idea of 2 4 man groups. Maybe make 2 ranked pvp scores. One for 8 man, one for 4 man.

Sweeet's Avatar


Sweeet
10.03.2012 , 10:17 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Technohic View Post
The gap from Recruit o WH has been reduced a bit; and BM is at least somewhat competitive to where I would argue, the new recruit gear does help a little; but just isn't the entire solution.

I would stay on point of encouraging WH or otherwise better equipped players to choose to play ranked as your general message. Hopefully what that would do is create a voluntary separation to where any gear gap differences there may be are mitigated.

Choice is key; as it doesn't force a perceived dumbed down game on some people or force a perceived imbalance on others.
Yes that is the general message I'm trying to get across, but I also feel that they need to make WH gear more accessible if they really want to get people back into the game. As of now the only people the game really caters for are the hardcore players who have the time to grind. Obviously they make up the vast minority of the original 1 million+ that first subscribed to the game. I'm genuinely surprised they haven't done more to get those players back already, I reckon a simple change like this would go a very very long way.

SpaniardInfinity's Avatar


SpaniardInfinity
10.03.2012 , 10:23 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Svii View Post

Valor is the only constant that can be used for creating more equal teams. Valor level requires a certain amount of WZs played and commendations earned, there is no way to cheat with this stat. If you are Valor 70+, you should have pretty decent gear and PVP experience.
I don't think Valor is really a good way of matchmaking. While it seems good, you must also recall that Valor has made substantially easier to obstain post-1.2, and also that there was extensive farming of Valor on Ilum before it was removed from the game (see update 1.1 for more details). True, the number of people who are guilty of this are probably a small fraction compared to the rest, but it's still worth mentioning that Valor can and has been inflated by people exploiting the system.

But really, it doesn't solve the problem. Assuming you PvP regularly, everyone will eventually graduate into the Valor 70+ pool against all the veteran players. Also, you'll have veteran players on alts who will decimate the lower pool until they themselves graduate up. A bigger problem is this: with legacy gear, would be possible to twink a character and have full WH + augments (minus ear/relics/implants) while still having no Valor. This is completely possible for anyone who has the credits to spend and the time to grind on their main or other alt (it's why my Mercenary was a Day 1 War Hero healer).

A better solution would be matchmaking based on Expertise, because Expertise is a more accurate estimate of your effective level (not skill) and you realistically should only be queued against people at that same effective level. The reason being is this: if you playing people of roughly the same Expertise, it should remove gear from the equation and the match will be decided by skill and teamwork, not by which team had better gear. The great thing about this is, should a veteran player want to hop down to the lower tiers, they will have to do it by dropping down to a lower gear level (which again, removes gear from the equation).
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vimm's Avatar


vimm
10.03.2012 , 10:23 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Sweeet View Post
I quit a few months back because I wasnít enjoying myself in PvP, quit simply because I only had full BM gear and didnít have the time to grind out WH gear to be truly competitive. Iíve now come back and am beginning to realise why I quit in the first place, the grind for WH gear is joke, and thatís when I already have full BM. I wanted to start working on my Scoundrel too, but having to grind out not only BM gear, but then WH gear on top of that just in order to be competitive is really putting a bad taste in my mouth. PvP is not fun when you are going up against WH premade over and over, itís as simple as that.

The biggest issue is that losing a Normal Warzone will actually net you more Ranked Warzone commendations than losing a Ranked Warzone... Which is ridiculous, itís no wonder all the premade WH groups are playing normal WZís... Not only do they get more Ranked Warzone commendations if they actually do lose, but the chances of them going up against a rookie pug and stomping them is greatly increased, giving them even more Ranked Warzone commendations for little effort. Since when is designing PVP to cater to this kind of behaviour good game design?

The fix is so simple I really am surprised itís not been done already. If you make losing a Ranked Warzone more lucrative and actually viable for gearing up to WH, it would fix PvP entirely. Recruit players would be left to fight other recruit players in Normal Warzones whilst trying to get their BM gear, and the rest of us in our BM gear and up would be left playing in Ranked Warzones trying to get full WH gear.

Then there is another bonus, what we will start seeing once everyone starts gearing up to the same level in Ranked Warzones, is games becoming more competitive and based on skill, which is what Ranked Warzones are all about in the first place! All the idiots who just want to steamroll the lesser geared players will still have their Normal Warzones and the rest of us will finally be able to start playing competitively and actually having some real fun.

Itís a win/win, and I think a little change like this could not only fix PvP, but save SWTOR in its entirety as the majority of people who have left, have done so because of PvP.

Isnít it about time to lessen the gear grind for WH gear and actually make gearing up through Ranked Warzones viable?
Losing a normal warzone does not net you more comms than a ranked game - not even close.

Why would I listen to a quitter, anyway?
geeR
Phantom of the Operative

cycao's Avatar


cycao
10.03.2012 , 10:25 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by vimm View Post
Losing a normal warzone does not net you more comms than a ranked game - not even close.

Why would I listen to a quitter, anyway?
Yeah you get what 60 ranked comms on the low end for a loss which you can get 100ish normal comms for a win in non ranked...I suck at math but I would say even getting plowed in ranked you still gear up faster.

Svii's Avatar


Svii
10.03.2012 , 10:37 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by SpaniardInfinity View Post
A better solution would be matchmaking based on Expertise, because Expertise is a more accurate estimate of your effective level (not skill) and you realistically should only be queued against people at that same effective level. The reason being is this: if you playing people of roughly the same Expertise, it should remove gear from the equation and the match will be decided by skill and teamwork, not by which team had better gear. The great thing about this is, should a veteran player want to hop down to the lower tiers, they will have to do it by dropping down to a lower gear level (which again, removes gear from the equation).
Seems like there is no system currently in place that can be used to properly match players. Something new must be done.

Valor: Legacy gear transfers nullifes Valor.

Gear rating: People can switch gear to get into lower brackets. Can be restricted to not change gear once inside, image the QQ about this feature hehe

Expertize: Same as above, but with a twist. Many Min/Maxers mod their gear for 1000-1200 exp and adds Power, making them hit even harder than if they had 1300+ expertize.

So what's left? Give people a set amount of Expertize in WZs and make gear only a way to customize your looks?

Briljin's Avatar


Briljin
10.03.2012 , 10:42 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Sweeet View Post
Some people actually have real life to attend to and can't afford to spend 40+ hours a week running Warzones to get fully geared in a couple of months, if not more - yes it actually takes that long at present.
If it takes you months, then you are seriously doing something wrong. You can get 1k normal and WH commendations each week just from the dailies and the one weekly. Average in 75 commendations a match for three games a games (daily only requires 2 wins or 4 games played) gives you another 1575 commendations. So you are looking at around 2800 normal and 1k WH commendation from just doing the PvP quests.

That is about 3 BW in two weeks and 1 WH. Hardly "a couple of months, if not more" "playing 40+ hours a week"...