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Healing Sage: 0% Alacrity?


Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
10.03.2012 , 08:34 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Cleet_Xia View Post
The problem with trying to find "mathematically optimal" is the number of variables.

Spec, rotation, player skill, & any strange preference or avoidance of abilities
The concepts of mathematical optimality and subjective preference for abilities have no business consorting with each other.

For example, you may choose to spec into Concentration and not use Salvation. That's perfectly fine, but it doesn't change the fact that your choices greatly restrict your healing output in an operations context. There is an immense amount of value in theoretical modelling despite the complexity of "real-life" situations, because it gives you insight in the most effective courses of action.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
10.04.2012 , 01:31 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
The concepts of mathematical optimality and subjective preference for abilities have no business consorting with each other.
That is precisely my point. But I'm sure everyone who's read this has some preferences in which abilities they use, and when. I'm sure they all believe those choices are based entirely on reason and logic. And I'm also sure that even you have your preferences. Careful how much logic you try to bring into a subjective conversation.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
For example, you may choose to spec into Concentration and not use Salvation. That's perfectly fine, but it doesn't change the fact that your choices greatly restrict your healing output in an operations context. There is an immense amount of value in theoretical modelling despite the complexity of "real-life" situations, because it gives you insight in the most effective courses of action.
I understand what your getting at, but my spec is an outlayer on the bell curve. I'm sure it's nowhere close to optimal, in a relative sense. I'm also playing with extremely high latency, a 3 button mouse, small monitor, & a dirty keyboard. I sometimes like to eat while I play as well. I have yet to play while drunk, but it seems to be a popular thing to do. I have never felt that my play was optimal. But I'm also not playing this game in some futile attempt to mimic the best dang seer AI ever invented either. I'm playing it to have fun. And if i have more fun playing it in a sub-optimal way, doing so is far more logical than paying my sub and not enjoying it. I could be healing 5% more just by changing everything I'm doing now, that's nice ~ still don't care, don't subjectively feel that I need the 5% boost.

What I'm talking about in differences of spec is the fact that there are 37 slots in the healing tree, 10 each in both the Tele and Balance trees you can put your 41 points in. And only 1 of them has to have a point in it to have Salvation. You don't have to spec for Rejuvenate. You don't have to spec for HT. Not sure why you'd do that to yourself ~ but it is possible to skip both of them and still have an AoE heal.. If I didn't use HT at all ~ I might drop it from my build ~ because that could actually work pretty good. You can design an optimal spec, and you can run a sim of optimal rotations with that spec. But as soon as you move 1 point, the results will be different, within the realm of hair splitting. You've got 57 places to put 41 points. That's 16 empty holes, and 6 of them can be in the healing tree, a lot of room for a lot of variation. It's finite ~ but players do have options.

As far as preferences for abilities, people go back and forth over Deliverance and HT. Eventhough, Deliverance on conveyance proc & HT can be so close enough in casting time, net cost, and the healing done that they can be pretty close to interchangeable. Some sages use Benevolence ~ some don't. Players use Force armor quite differently. Some players use rejuvenate for topping up DPS, while others only cast it on the tank. Whether or not any of these are the right decision to make can depend on who is standing where. You can't accurately simulate that, because it adds too many variables. The raw quantity of healing you can do is meaningless in a vaccume.

The sims require you to adhere to something of an ideal roation ~ can you actually do that in practice? Well guess what, that chucked optimal out the window, because your regen is now in a different place than it should be according to the model. Someone misses an interrupt, optimal blown. What about people playing well? ~ then you've got a lot less to heal, and optimal isn't hardly relevant anymore. Identifying an optimal roation and spec through a simulation only tells you what the maximum theoretical amount of healing is possible, it does very little to help you actually achieve it. You can say things like, "well I could use X ability less frequently" And that's about it. Helpful?....possibly Absolutley vital ZOMG I Gotta know NAO information.... not really.

So now that we've passed through the layers of spec and ability usage variables, there is still the the gear layer. Yes you can run the sims with an ideal BiS gearing, and that can actually be mathematically determined. If you make an assumption like "BiS means largest number of total stat points possible". Otherwise, at some point past the DR for secondary stats you get into value judgement territory. Because you're splitting hairs fine enough that you're not going to percieve the difference in practice. The sim might identify a difference, but chances are ~ the player won't. But if you're wearing BiS, how much are you still playing the toon? And if you're not running with BiS, what does the sim tell you? The answer is exactly what you already knew about the DR curves ~ and that you're not optimal. Gee, already had that information.

The sim accounts for a certain amount of mistakes, weird spec choices, gear, & general bad play? Well, where you set the bar is entirely subjective, and the sim is now completely pointless. Let's recap- the sim describes a theoretical maximum you will never obtain ~or~ it provides you with equally meaningless information, that looks a lot more like player parses.

I'm playing a game with all these options, but I'm supposed to pick exactly the same one's as everyone else?...... that's a lot of fun, and so incredibly interesting. I have an idea, balance things so that a stupid amount of variation is possible, and people get to try things out to their subjective preference....more better. Oh wait, they tried that, and the forum filled up with QQ that the content was too easy.

Lets face it... napkin math, sims, and threads like this... they're just fun, and that's good enough reason to have them. But the existence of those things doesn't make threads like this any less subjective. The Op is subjective. But it's a great thing to bring back up, for the people who havn't been around since launch.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.04.2012 , 02:00 AM | #43
You are confusing and mixing two concepts that really don't belong together. You can play however you like. That's not the issue here. The OP used the term min/max. And you responded to the term "mathematically optimal." Those terms are not subjective. No one is suggesting you can't clear all the content if you put a point somewhere else in the skill tree or change out a couple of pieces of gear. But for people who are on raid progression currently working on Terror from Beyond on hard mode, cranking every last ounce of DPS or healing possible from their toon is a priority. To suggest there is no value in determining the best way to do that is ridiculous. Mathematically optimal can be measured. Is it some sort of untouchable golden rule requiring everyone to conform to that standard or else? No. But it's a good barometer and can definitely help people determine where they can improve if they want to get better. Running with no alacrity is not min/max and not mathematically optimal. You are still allowed to gear that way if you choose, and if you can still clear the content, that's just dandy. But don't call it min/max or mathematically optimal.

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
10.04.2012 , 02:49 AM | #44
I understood the OP's usage of min/max = purple 26 mods of their choosing & various engame gear that did not provide any alacrity. Because that's the information the OP provides.

And then people went all donkey kong about min/max without alacrity =/= mathematically optimal ~ eventhough the entire content of the OP is purely opinion. The OP identified it as such. So what if they don't feel alacrity helps them? They also said that Deliverance is useless. They were asking if anyone shared the opinion. NOT for everyone to explain to them why they feel the OP is an idiot. Nowhere did they claim that their approach was mathematically optimal. They did react to people's criticism in a way that was inflammatory.

I answered the op by saying , "NO, I like my alacrity. But I'm sure you can get by without it, and hey that's your choice" ~ albeit in a very wordy post..

I responded later to a few posts that were made concerning people's opinions about what constitutes ideal.

I do have to laugh at myself though, for going off into my "sims & parsers are just tools to sell banner ads" rant.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.04.2012 , 03:19 AM | #45
My problem is with usage of the term min/max. Min/maxing means minimizing bad traits and maximizing good ones to create the best character possible. You can't do that without alacrity. If the OP wants to cut out alacrity for additional surge, he can knock himself out, but don't call it min/max.

logankeepes's Avatar


logankeepes
10.04.2012 , 03:28 PM | #46
The problem with my Sage is that i have very little Alacrity. Before i got rid of my alacrity, I had no problems keeping up with my guild mates on a parser, but since i've gotten rid of it i am no use to them. My scoundrel is fine with no alacrity because of the way scoundrel healing is built, but my sage just HAS to have alac. my HPS and total healing are embarrassing with my sage. i've got 2350 willpower, 35% crit chance, and i'm surely over the surge cap. when i get off work i'm switching my enhancements out for alac ones.
The Harbinger

Kuvox's Avatar


Kuvox
10.05.2012 , 12:35 AM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by logankeepes View Post
The problem with my Sage is that i have very little Alacrity. Before i got rid of my alacrity, I had no problems keeping up with my guild mates on a parser, but since i've gotten rid of it i am no use to them. My scoundrel is fine with no alacrity because of the way scoundrel healing is built, but my sage just HAS to have alac. my HPS and total healing are embarrassing with my sage. i've got 2350 willpower, 35% crit chance, and i'm surely over the surge cap. when i get off work i'm switching my enhancements out for alac ones.
Same scenario tried.

In May a fellow Sage healer and I thought that dropping alacrity in favor of surge would help us clear HM Kephess. We parse everything. We did 7 fights one night with both of us having little to no alacrity in our gear. Our healing output was about 200 HPS lower than what we were used to. The next night I increased alacrity to around 9.5% or so but my friend didn't have the credits to pull out his mods and enhancements so he continued healing with little alacrity. My healing increased to where it had been previously while my friends was quite a bit lower than mine (and we are usually neck and neck).

And to the OP's point that alacrity is not needed b/c of frequent use of Salvation and Healing Trance I would argue that that's not really true until boss fights are really down pat. For example, tonight we did HM Denova. I rarely used deliverance or benevolence. By contrast, last night we did the first 4 bosses of HM TFB. Because we don't have HM TFB down yet, and had new players, I had to use Deliverance and Benevolence WAY more than I would have liked. When Salvation and Healing Trance were both on cooldown the raid was taking such damage that I was absolutely forced to use deliverance and benevolence and was very glad to have had a decent alacrity rating when using those heals.
Kuvox | Rakit | Ethelmerman - The Ebon Hawk & The Harbinger

Krazy_Karl's Avatar


Krazy_Karl
10.05.2012 , 04:18 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
But for people who are on raid progression currently working on Terror from Beyond on hard mode, cranking every last ounce of DPS or healing possible from their toon is a priority.
Not true. TFB HM is complete, and it was done without what the thread seems to label as "ideal" optimization.

Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Running with no alacrity is not min/max and not mathematically optimal. You are still allowed to gear that way if you choose, and if you can still clear the content, that's just dandy. But don't call it min/max or mathematically optimal.
Min/Max != mathmatically optimal in the context of what I was initially curious about. Min/Max in what I was saying is that I optimized all of my mods such that I used none of the "lettered" mods/enhancements, the optimal armorings, and the ideal main stat allocation.

Play style plays such a huge factor into the "secondary" stats which is what we were discussing and I was curious as to peoples mileage, not what formulas say. The best and only argument for Alacrity that was valid in said context was the mobility and use of "downtime" when not casting heals. Anything that relies on a sim, or a theoretical view of sustained healing (HPS) is irrelevant in the context of this discussion because we are not healing in a vacuum. Maybe I was not eloquent enough in my original post, and apologies for that.

However, if players want to base how they "feel" their healing is on math and HPS, so be it. But unless they actually try other combinations, how will they know what is best for them for sure?

Regards,
KK
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. - Yoda

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
10.05.2012 , 08:27 AM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Krazy_Karl View Post
Not true. TFB HM is complete, and it was done without what the thread seems to label as "ideal" optimization.
An advertisement that you clocked TFB HM without a specific gear setup. Congrats...

Quote:
Play style plays such a huge factor into the "secondary" stats which is what we were discussing and I was curious as to peoples mileage, not what formulas say. ... However, if players want to base how they "feel" their healing is on math and HPS, so be it.
Am I the only one who has min/maxed my full Campaign gear such that I run with 0% Alacrity?

Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that 0% is mathematical and that it affects my HPS mileage. Min, max... hmm.

Quote:
And if you're using either of the other two spells (Deliverance, Benevolence) with any frequency at all, you're doing it wrong.
Frequency? Would you mind proving that for us? Or would that be too mathematical and an indication of mileage? A mile being a measure of distance, where mileage is distance over time (or distance per unit of resource consumed).

But hey, you could just go with how 'you feel', which is obviously a certain smugness.

Say... are you that special guy that runs with 0% alacrity?
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.05.2012 , 10:58 AM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Krazy_Karl View Post
...

However, if players want to base how they "feel" their healing is on math and HPS, so be it. But unless they actually try other combinations, how will they know what is best for them for sure?

Regards,
KK
This is a fair point, but logankeepes, Kuvox and myself all posted specific experience with 0% alacrity -- the claims we make aren't being made from an Ivory Tower of pure theory.

In this thread I've seen mention of math and theorycrafting describe the benefits of a moderate amount of alacrity. I've had personal experience in end-game content with it, and I've seen a very clear example of Kuvox losing healing without alacrity and gaining it back when put back in.

Seems pretty cut-and-dried.