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Healing Sage: 0% Alacrity?


CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
10.03.2012 , 05:40 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
All snarkiness aside, I firmly believe the point I made earlier:

Both a 0 alacrity sage healer and a mid-rage (~285) alacrity healer can succeed at any content in the game, up to and including HM TfB. There is not a single encounter that requires absolute perfect Best in Slot across the board.

This leaves then:

1. What's best for a personal playstyle.
and
2. What gear will give you the most possible healing.

Any discussion about #2 should involve math. Just sayin'
Pretty much, nightmare might necessitate some of this but for the moment it's optimizing for the sake of crutching or just for the fun of it.
You can't just eye-ball optimal in a game where the formula for crit chance looks like this.

5% + 30% * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( PrimaryStat / max(Level,20) ) / 2.5 ) ) + 30% * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( CritRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.45 ) )
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
10.03.2012 , 05:50 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Krazy_Karl View Post
People like Aurojin respond to threads like this because he seems to believe "his way is the best way PERIOD" and do not want to have a discussion.
It's amusing, really. You posted this thread looking to discuss gearing choices. I pointed out that your gearing choice was sub-optimal in terms of healing output in a sustained casting scenario. This is a mathematical fact, whether you appreciate it or not. Since then you've done nothing but attack me, and try to deflect any contributions you don't appreciate by maintaining some sort of self-gratifying moral high ground.

The only person here who doesn't want to engage in a real discussion is you.

The best part is how you built your original post around the effects of Surge vs Alacrity on healing output, then once you were contradicted you suddenly pulled the "everything's easy to heal and I don't have to try anyway" card.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

theborch's Avatar


theborch
10.03.2012 , 06:00 PM | #33
Even if everything in end game is easy to heal and the range is just how easy it will be, there is still, no matter what, one combination of stats and skill tree that is the ideal combo. The real issue is no one here is going to sit down and run multiple simulations and crunch 50+ equations to figure out what that ideal is. There is a mathematically ideal setup but who is actually going to take the time to find it? I think comment that pointed out an 8% gain in alacrity is more beneficial then a 2.5% gain of surge is probably in the right pall park when it comes to optimizing those two specific stats.
The Bastion - The BaconStrips Legacy
DukeOfCypress LVL 52 Rage Jugg * WhiskeyLube LVL 50 Seer Sage * PantsHammer LVL 50 Sawbones Scoundrel

CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
10.03.2012 , 06:04 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by theborch View Post
The real issue is no one here is going to sit down and run multiple simulations and crunch 50+ equations to figure out what that ideal is. There is a mathematically ideal setup but who is actually going to take the time to find it?
Actually, people were doing exactly that just a matter of months ago. Had they actually fiddled with more than just expertise with the 1.2 patch we'd probably be doing some more at this point.
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
10.03.2012 , 06:12 PM | #35
It's really a bit of a wash. It's certainly possible to heal with, or without it. And I don't think it's important which is mathematically optimal according to XYZ sim or parser results. The difference isn't enough to allow or prohibit you from clearning content.

The effect of alacrity on regen is pretty negligible, if you heal with lots of Noble sac & Salvation that aspect is irrelevant. Self healing with Salvation to offset Noble Sac works fine with or without alacrity. But I do find resource management to be a little more difficult when alacrity goes over 11%, and I start having to intentionally idle.

Myself I try to avoid using Salvation, and prefer to single target heal instead. I'm with you on the idea that Benevolence doesn't belong in the toolbox of healing spec sages. It's really only an emergency cast for dps sages. But, on the subject of Deliverance I've got to disagree. Because you can't hardly single target heal without it. Sure single target healing is more spikey, but it doesn't pen the group to standing in a relatively small circle either. It's definately a matter of prefference.

I don't think there is any real advantage to single target healing Vs spamming the AoE, it's just not mind numbingly boring. For me, single target healing minimizes my usage of Noble Sac, so I can use those GCD's for other casts. It's a difference in style of play. And in the situations that require it, I'm not barred from switching to Salvation & Noble Sac by my gearing. With low alacrity, I'm essentially forced into casting Salvation & Noble Sac more frequently. I prefer to maintain my flexibility.

Without starting yet another debate of whether or not healers should dps, by speccing for the cheapest and most effective Salvation, we also specced for the most effective Force Quake. I also tend to pepper my healing with Disturbance and Tk Throw. All of which are influenced by alacrity. My opinion is that dpsing is just too risky with less than 3% alacrity. About 5% alacrity it becomes possible to sneak in a Disturbance, with little impact on healing. Part of the time required to cast Disturbance is created by the effect of alacrity on my large heals. Using Tk Throw requires me to have even more alacrity.

Now that I've said that, I'll go ahead and admit to being a heretic, get out the torches and pitchforks. I'm specced for Concentration. So I manage the proc from Disturbance, to maintain a 3 stack if possible. I find that it "decellerates" the decline of my force pool enough that I can dps for several minutes, before I have to begin idling for resource conservation, without using Noble Sac. I do it because I enjoy it. If I manage my concentration proc anywhere close to optimally, the boosted regen during my heals is enough to pay for the Disturbance. With the regen boost, TK throw becomes force positive. And TK throw provides almost enough force to make my next HT or Deliverance resource nuetral. I could idle during these dps casts & be sitting on a larger force pool, but if it never gets used ~ what is the point of even having it? Insurance policies are worse than worthless if you never, ever, collect.

In the end....
I think maybe the most relevant aspect of alacrity, isn't really how it shortens casting times, it's how alacrity shortens the time that you are "rooted" by your own casts. Those tenths of senconds can make a real difference. And it creates a little more wiggly room for making errors.

I like my alacrity between 8% -10%, just for the feel of it. I like it higher on my PvP gear. And I don't like having less than 5% at all.
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~

theborch's Avatar


theborch
10.03.2012 , 06:25 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainApop View Post
Actually, people were doing exactly that just a matter of months ago. Had they actually fiddled with more than just expertise with the 1.2 patch we'd probably be doing some more at this point.
I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"
The Bastion - The BaconStrips Legacy
DukeOfCypress LVL 52 Rage Jugg * WhiskeyLube LVL 50 Seer Sage * PantsHammer LVL 50 Sawbones Scoundrel

CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
10.03.2012 , 06:34 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by theborch View Post
I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"
Most of the heavy theorycrafters aren't here anymore or have become bitter :p

And you're never going to convince all people of anything like this. For starters having declared the best course of action to be decided mathematically I'd say a large portion of the playerbase will immediately shut off and never go in that deep.
Back over in wow, where you literally had people creating full on sims to crunch rotations, you still had people vehemently insisting otherwise. It's just the way of things :L
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

enoax's Avatar


enoax
10.03.2012 , 06:37 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by theborch View Post
I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"
It's all on mmo-mechanics. It's all been figured out there. Look there is you want an inteligent discussion on gearing. The official forums has too much chest pounding and epeen stroking to have any kind of real discussion ... This thread is a perfect example of that.
enoa - sage - harbringer
chauser - gunslinger
crryra - assassin

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.03.2012 , 06:55 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by theborch View Post
I am just saying if people fiddled with it enough there would be an exact answer, but I don't see it anywhere or being shown here. What I see here is just a lot of... "I played with my gear and this set up feels right"
This post is a comprehensive coverage of Sage dps theorycrafting:
http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-947.html

Here is one discussing the SimC parsing of BiS (as of 1.3) Sorcerer/Sage dps:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=499626

This healing thread is unfortunately, less comprehensive:
http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-954.html

IMO, this is due to the nature of the beast. In a PvE situation a dps has a simple job. Deal as much damage as fast as possible in the alotted time (oh, and don't stand in the red circles!)

Healing on the other hand tends to be more reactive. If you heal past full health or bubble someone not taking damage, that is overhealing and is a waste of resources. If a someone makes a mistake and other raid members start taking excess damage, you have to juggle more things at once.

This is one of the reasons that the SimC devs haven't modeled a healing scenario in their app. That said, much of the logic that can be applied to calculating dps can also be applied to calculating hps.

Cleet_Xia's Avatar


Cleet_Xia
10.03.2012 , 07:41 PM | #40
The problem with trying to find "mathematically optimal" is the number of variables.

Spec, rotation, player skill, & any strange preference or avoidance of abilities

ALL have an impact on what is optimal. And those are just the variables that are under the control of the sage healer themselves. It's not just how much you're healing, it's also what you're healing and how.

When you start bringing in the external variables (such as the above set for the players being healed) ~ the complexity of a truely accurate sim grows exponentially with the sophistication of the engine behind the game itself.

You can find optimal for a grossly limited set of variables, but then you throw in the wild card of people making a single random mistake, and "optimal" just went right out the window. I don't know about you, but my mistake CD is about 20 seconds. Few of those mistakes are party wipes, but I'm nowhere near playing "optimally", and I'm never going to achieve that.

The results from a napkin math rotation or even an awesome sim, don't mean squat as soon as you bring the variables from other players and different boss mechincs into the picture. It's actually what makes the game interesting, and player skill relevent. How can you accurately simulate a task that requires you to respond to randomness?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
The emergent properties of the game are such that at the almost every stat past the DR softcap is of subjective value. That is a pretty good design....
~Master Telagtun Telag of Lord Calypho~