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HM Kephess fight


Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
09.17.2012 , 03:33 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I can't believe people are advocating not tank swapping. That's ridiculous. Savage Wounding ticks for more damage than Kephess himself is doing with direct attacks in that phase. Can you heal through it? Sure. Should you? No. You increase the risk (especially if your healing composition lacks burst, i.e. two sages) for absolutely no benefit. There is absolutely no reason not to tank swap on Kephess' DoT application, unless your healers and tanks are unable to accomplish challenging tasks such as tying their own shoes or identifying right from left.
This is either very ill-conceived, or very misleading. The issue is that regardless of whether you tank swap or not, you will still have to heal through the DoT. The amount of damage going around does not change, unless you specifically alternate tank cooldowns for each one. If you do not, then your healers have to do the same amount on either one target or two, in which case the *only* benefit to tank swapping is the longer grace period before a tank hits zero health. Remember that no one else in the entire raid is taking damage at this point, so if your healers seriously cannot keep up with a DoT that ticks every three seconds, they have no business being in EC.

If you *do* alternate tank cooldowns, then there is some utility in swapping. However, it is much more likely that you are having trouble healing through it for some other reason. Are your healers wasting time topping people who won't take any more damage until Kephess hits 60%, for instance? Or are they, as described in the farcical post up the page, hitting Noble Sacrifice while the DoT is on the tank? There are a myriad of far simpler and more logical ways to deal with this than tank swapping.

It is also worth remembering that the DoT will only happen 3-4 times. Any more than that and you've already wiped; you just don't know it.

I would also like to reiterate what Nursejen said above: if undue stress is being put on the healers, she *would* let us know in no uncertain terms ;P

Remember as well that we are discussing 8-man, not 16-man. If you do 16-man, you can expect larger spikes, and mitigating them is more of an issue.

I have healed this fight on hard mode in columi gear. The DoT is worth about 8-9k extra healing per healer, over 9 seconds. The trick is providing yourself a buffer for the first one after the bomber dies. Bubbling the tank and having him pop a cooldown for that first DoT helps immensely, as does the realization that no one else will need any healing whatsoever until Kephess hits 60%.. Do not take the difficulty of the first one and extrapolate the need for a more complicated strategy than is really necessary.

To the OP, good luck with the fight I hope you will try both ways and do whatever gives you the most success.
~ Darth Decimal ~

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
09.17.2012 , 03:56 PM | #22
what i like:

have a designated tank with designated pocket healer deal with kephess while the other healer keeps the group up and dps's the bomber and walker. the tank on kephess can pop a cd or two when at 50% health after taking the dot while the teams downs the walker.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
09.17.2012 , 07:48 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Olostur View Post
in which case the *only* benefit to tank swapping is the longer grace period before a tank hits zero health.
Bingo. And this is far more of a benefit than any justification that's been suggested for not tank swapping (read: none whatsoever).

I think it's especially bemusing that some posters are falling over themselves to explain how ****** they are because it's so easy to heal through Kephess' attacks plus Savage Wounding (yes, we're so impressed you can perform a simple healing rotation). I put it to you that if you can't deal with a simple tank swap that provides more margin for error and breathing room on the part of the healers, you have no business being in HM.

Let's be clear: the point here is to give the OP every possible advantage in order to clear Kephess, not talk about how awesome we are and how easy healing is.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
09.17.2012 , 08:08 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I put it to you that if you can't deal with a simple tank swap that provides more margin for error and breathing room on the part of the healers, you have no business being in HM.
If your healers cannot heal through that DoT on one person, when they have no one else to heal at all, they have no business being in hard mode. Or if your tank has so little health that they can go from full to dead that quickly, *they* have no business being in hard mode.

No tank swap: healers focus heal one person who pops one cooldown once; the rest of the group can focus on the walker. Tank swap: Healers heal two people, swapping and alternating cooldowns. It's amazing that you honestly think the first is the more complicated strategy. It isn't. The second one just moves more of the strategy onto the tanks to compensate for either shoddy healers or weak tank builds.

If the OP is suffering from one of those two conditions, then it is entirely possible that tank swapping is the best way for them to do it. However, if they are not, then there is nothing wrong with reducing the number of people who have to pay attention at that point in the fight. This is an example of excess strategy trying to make up for good execution of the raid members' classes (in particular, the tank and two healers).

For that matter, imagining that we have any trouble with tank swaps, given that we got past earlier bosses, shows quite clearly that you aren't thinking things through. In this case it is merely a question of whether you want more for the tanks to do (and no cooldowns to pop if things go bad later), or healers who are disinclined to take micro naps during boss fights.

Edit: I got some specific numbers from our tank and healer:

Assuming no cooldown is popped, the skill that lands the DoT does 11000, and the DoT does 26400 over 18 seconds to our tank. That means each healer is responsible for 5500 initially (read: almost completely absorbed by the sage's bubble, or the expected return of one deliverance), and then they need to do 13200 healing over 18 seconds each. That means 733 heals per second. Last our sage tried, she could do over 1700 HPS, and that is sustained, not burst. That hardly needs a greater margin of error. More specifically, one healing trance has an expected return over 6780, or half of the total healing they need to do to counter the DoT. It is true that Kephess is also doing damage during this time, but it is laughably low and also shieldable.
~ Darth Decimal ~

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
09.17.2012 , 08:19 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post

I think it's especially bemusing that some posters are falling over themselves to explain how ****** they are because it's so easy to heal through Kephess' attacks plus Savage Wounding (yes, we're so impressed you can perform a simple healing rotation). I put it to you that if you can't deal with a simple tank swap that provides more margin for error and breathing room on the part of the healers, you have no business being in HM.

Let's be clear: the point here is to give the OP every possible advantage in order to clear Kephess, not talk about how awesome we are and how easy healing is.
I'm glad you are impressed . But really it's nothing...and apparently something that some healers are not capable of. But at the end of the day..not something I said for people to be impressed with..since many many many healers can do it...just the realization that it can be done..and is being done quite easily.

"I put it to you that if you can't deal with a simple tank swap that provides more margin for error and breathing room on the part of the healers, you have no business being in HM."

Gosh darnit..you caught me. Afterall..tank swapping doesn't take place anywhere else during that fight that needs to be managed. And let me use your words..."it provides more margin for error and breathing room on the part of the healers". ....well.. if the healers are capable of doing it without any trouble for them or danger to the rest of the ops group...then why use a strat that...again..your words.... provides more margin for error. Seems rather illogical to me.

and ouch...I don't belong in HM? aww ..but I am..and have been for quite some time. But I do owe it to my awesome Ops group. Thanks for playing
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
09.17.2012 , 08:20 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Olostur View Post
In this case it is merely a question of whether you want more for the tanks to do (and no cooldowns to pop if things go bad later), or healers who are disinclined to take micro naps during boss fights.
...what?

You're equating tank swapping (I assume this is what you mean by more for the tanks to do) with using cooldowns. The point of tank swapping is that your tanks aren't using any cooldowns at all. With the damage split over two health pools, and the incoming damage from Savage Wounding being rather slow in delivery, the healers should be able to cover the damage adequately without requiring the tank to use any CDs. You have more cooldowns available if things go wrong, not less.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
I'm glad you are impressed
Trust me, I'm always amazed by the content of your posts. Do you still believe Power is superior to Willpower for Sages?
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
09.17.2012 , 08:33 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
You're equating tank swapping (I assume this is what you mean by more for the tanks to do) with using cooldowns. The point of tank swapping is that your tanks aren't using any cooldowns at all. With the damage split over two health pools, and the incoming damage from Savage Wounding being rather slow in delivery, the healers should be able to cover the damage adequately without requiring the tank to use any CDs. You have more cooldowns available if things go wrong, not less.
You need to go back and re-read my post very slowly, and then maybe you will be able to understand. Alternatively, I will say it very clearly and simply here: if your tanks are not alternating cooldowns as well as swapping, then the amount of healing needed is exactly the same; it is just spread across two targets. Assuming a force armor on the tank, there is no danger that they will die before they can be healed, because neither healer need focus anyone else anyway. The DoT does 1400-1500 DPS. If your healers cannot do that combined, then you are not doing Kephess HM because you keep wiping on Toth and Zorn. We have one tank pop one cooldown on the very first DoT application, while the group is transitioning to the walker. After that, no CD's are needed or used, and that first one is back up before the fight is over anyway.

If you prefer to tank swap, more power to you. However, saying that you cannot imagine why someone wouldn't tank swap belies a lack of imagination or understanding.
~ Darth Decimal ~

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
09.17.2012 , 08:34 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post


Trust me, I'm always amazed by the content of your posts. Do you still believe Power is superior to Willpower for Sages?
Lol. DISENGAGE...DISENGAGE..when it doubt DISENGAGE! You're fun..and I'm glad I have a fan..thank you
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
09.17.2012 , 08:35 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
... "it provides more margin for error and breathing room on the part of the healers". ....well.. if the healers are capable of doing it without any trouble for them or danger to the rest of the ops group...then why use a strat that...again..your words.... provides more margin for error. Seems rather illogical to me. ...
Given the OP's group is having trouble with the fight, finding them more margin for error seems like the exact point of this thread.

Olostur's Avatar


Olostur
09.17.2012 , 08:47 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Given the OP's group is having trouble with the fight, finding them more margin for error seems like the exact point of this thread.
Of course. The point that a few others and I are trying to make is that there are other ways to do that, ways that we at least have found simpler.

Essentially, we're saying that if the tank is bubbled, one CD is sufficient to mitigate the spike on the very first one, where Kephess transitions from easy Kephess into angry Kephess, and after that it's not actually a lot to heal through. Therefore, I wonder whether there are other reasons why they may be having trouble.

Already it was discussed that they may not be bubbling. Also, I reminded them that there is no one else at all to heal at that point, as no one but the tank will take any damage. Maybe their healers are topping other people off rather than focusing on the tank, even though they have all the way until 60% to heal anyone else.

Another possibility is that the healers are trying to mix DPS on the walker with their healing. I know some groups do this, and it may be necessary for them, but I am of the strong opinion that if you are relying on this to shore up your DPS, you need to give your damage dealers a swift kick in the posterior. Remember that if you aren't tank swapping here, one tank will have more uptime on the walker anyway.

I have found that my raid team's strategies are often a lot simpler than others out there. Some people prefer to over-think strategy so they can be lax on their class. My guild spends a lot of time working our classes and trying to understand fights, then use very simple common sense. It is a matter of preference, as both work fine, and there is utility in proposing both to the OP, so they can chose what works best for them.
~ Darth Decimal ~