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HM Kephess fight


Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
09.17.2012 , 01:19 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
All the Sorc shield is, is a preemptive heal. It will help by absorbing some of the damage but otherwise it isn't a huge difference. The DoT is internal damage so it can't really be mitigated, the best you can do is tank swap when the DoT is applied to spread the damage across both tanks. However, if you have an Assassin tank they could pop Resilience to reduce the damage for 5 seconds.
Disagree.

And the problem they are having is the initial application of the bleed, which happens when he lands during the last bomber phase. You can soak a large portion of that damage, and give your healers time to flip from bomber heals, to healing the tank.

After that point there really is not even a need to spread the damage. Your healing output is the same. Have your healers focus on your Keph tank and you win. The only point anyone takes any damage after the final bomber is during his purple circle of doom. After which no one else even requires heals.

So summary time correct?

1. Kephess jumps in the air.

2. Kephess lands. Woe to those in his red circle.

3. Kephess suddenly becomes angry at you because you have taunted.

4. Kephess applies his bleed.

5. Repeat until 60% and the bleed is no longer a part of the equation.

There is no need for a tank swap because of the DOT. Again, healing output is still the same. So long as your tank has more than 13k hp, your focused healing is greater than the damage Keph can put out in a GCD. Adding the tank swap just adds clutter to your strat. If it works for you, fine. But really not required at all.

The only time where your healers attention is split is as mentioned previously when the bomber is still alive and hurting people. Thus, when Kephess lands, and your healers are just finishing topping people up from the dead or soon to be dead bomber, pop your cooldown to ease that transition. Think of it as lube. After that transition no healers worth their salt will have any problem healing one target.

Shout out to Nursejen, Thorriin, Riivanna, and Uldo for being healers capable of this task. Some of which were in Columi gear when they healed Keph (HM) for the first time and somehow managed.

~~~~~~
Edit: Which CD's do you mean?

Shadow
1. Resilience - http://www.torhead.com/ability/dEsVsc4/resilience

Guardian
1. Warding Call - http://www.torhead.com/ability/1fehEMv/warding-call

2. Saber Ward - http://www.torhead.com/ability/5TCbWzd/saber-ward

Vanguard
1. Reactive Shield - http://www.torhead.com/ability/g4iOfPW/reactive-shield

Oggthebase's Avatar


Oggthebase
09.17.2012 , 02:12 AM | #12
I would say that the tank swap for the bleed should be a matter of preference for the healers (I downed Kephess HM with both methods).

Indeed the healing output is the same, but swapping the tank has pros and cons:
pros:
- the health pool of the tank(s) is somewhat doubled
- the number of tanking CDs is doubled, so more "oh ****!" buttons (but it does not equate to doubling the time as the two tanks CDs could overlap or even be used simultaneously while one bleeds and the other is being hit by Kephess)
the end result is that it gives breathing room for the healers to have a bigger health pool to heal.

cons:
- healing two tanks forces the healers to juggle their targets, while having only one tank allows the healers to mindlessly spam their big heals.
- if there is a lack of communication or coordination, the two healers may both focus the same tank at the same time and leave the other tank dry to die while overhealing the first

so my advice is to try both methods and ask your healers which one they're more comfortable with. It boils down to their playstyle.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
09.17.2012 , 02:19 AM | #13
The Shadow/Assassin 100% Force/Tech resistance one. Resilience/Force Shroud. None of the other CDs are particularly effective against Force/Tech (40% from Warding Call, 25% Int/Ele resist from Saber Ward and Reactive Shield). I just mixed up the Imp class with the Pub ability.

Also it isn't a matter of how much damage Kephess puts out in 1 GCD. Its a matter of how much damage he can put out between heals. Which can get pretty spread out with Sorc/Sage. Imagine: HoT -> Noble Sac -> Deliverance. 5.5s between noticeable heals. If you just have your healers spamming GCD length heals that a recipe for running out of force/energy/ammo.

One thing to remember about Sorc bubble is that it is also their best 'burst' heal as well as being preemptive. If the tank is getting the DoT while they have the deionized debuff and dying before it falls off, then you should consider holding the bubble for that phase. It doesn't matter if its at the start or after the DoT is applied, the result is the same. Ideally, you want the tank to eat the DoT in the period of time between deionized falling off and the bubble falling off, thereby allowing a new bubble to be applied immediately. Unfortunately this is tough to manage.

What the tank swap DOES accomplish is to split the incoming damage across 2 HP pools. Noticeably lowering the DTPS of the tank, doubling the effect of a Scoundrel HoTs and any AoE heals. Lowers the incoming 'burst' from Kephess but requires the healers to pay attention to 2 targets, 1 of whom isn't really at risk of death. If they are having issues with that phase of the fight and don't wish to use their CDs (which I would assume they don't if they are asking here for a method of reducing incoming damage), then a tank swap is the answer.

Again, all pre-casting sorc bubble does is provide a preemptive heal. It's not a bad thing, but the mitigation from it make no difference if it is cast at 100% or 5% aside from 1 GCD.

Edit: Just to clarify, we don't use the tank swap method, but we also don't have an issue with the bleed causing too much initial damage and prefer to save CDs from GotM.

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
09.17.2012 , 02:35 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Imagine: HoT -> Noble Sac -> Deliverance. 5.5s between noticeable heals. If you just have your healers spamming GCD length heals that a recipe for running out of force/energy/ammo.

One thing to remember about Sorc bubble is that it is also their best 'burst' heal as well as being preemptive. If the tank is getting the DoT while they have the deionized debuff and dying before it falls off, then you should consider holding the bubble for that phase. It doesn't matter if its at the start or after the DoT is applied, the result is the same. Ideally, you want the tank to eat the DoT in the period of time between deionized falling off and the bubble falling off, thereby allowing a new bubble to be applied immediately. Unfortunately this is tough to manage.
...Ok.

ONE - if your healer actually throws a NS into their healing rotation at a point where increased heals are needed due to an increase in damage...as opposed to the many other opportunities during the fight where it would be more logically sound to use... (because it isn't needed all the time) ..then there is nothing that can be said to fix that type of stupid.

TWO - As for the rest of that..... Honestly...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBPqksG9nbA
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

Justcae's Avatar


Justcae
09.17.2012 , 02:53 AM | #15
Missing the point entirely.

They are having problems with the initial transition. When heals are split between bomber, and Kephess tank. When Keph does his jump, and they are finishing off the bomber this is the only time where heals are split at all between the tank and anything else with a health bar. If they are having problems with that transition the preemptive bubble will give them ~4k extra. Add in the cooldown and it truly makes the fight easy. Every other Jump -> Land -> Bleed will have both healers available the entire time.

After that point -> 60% it's a matter of preference. If you need to swap tanks to spread CD's for the 3-4 bleeds you'll be facing, that's understandable. To spread the damage around? Unnecessary.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
Also it isn't a matter of how much damage Kephess puts out in 1 GCD. Its a matter of how much damage he can put out between heals. Which can get pretty spread out with Sorc/Sage. Imagine: HoT -> Noble Sac -> Deliverance. 5.5s between noticeable heals. If you just have your healers spamming GCD length heals that a recipe for running out of force/energy/ammo.
The GCD comment refers to how paltry your actual HP need to be to tank Kephess. If you had a 14k HP tank, you could heal him through Kephess as that is more HP than his largest spike (8 man). Every tank is going to be over that mark considerably. Further more, and I'm assuming you've done this fight successfully, you know that you very very rarely see that type of damage ever. You do not need close to anything resembling GCD heal spam. Any standard tank will never be in danger with two healers watching his healthbar and healing without mental deficiency.

Doubling your effective health pool does not matter as your healers whatever their rotation is higher than Kephess damage + Bleed. If it wasn't it wouldn't matter what your health pool was it would be a losing battle. Your two healers > than that damage by far. Without spam.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
One thing to remember about Sorc bubble is that it is also their best 'burst' heal as well as being preemptive. If the tank is getting the DoT while they have the deionized debuff and dying before it falls off, then you should consider holding the bubble for that phase. It doesn't matter if its at the start or after the DoT is applied, the result is the same. Ideally, you want the tank to eat the DoT in the period of time between deionized falling off and the bubble falling off, thereby allowing a new bubble to be applied immediately. Unfortunately this is tough to manage.
Apply the bubble while Kephess is in the air. It's not trickery. He applies the dot on his first attack after he lands.

Quote: Originally Posted by grallmate View Post
What the tank swap DOES accomplish is to split the incoming damage across 2 HP pools. Noticeably lowering the DTPS of the tank, doubling the effect of a Scoundrel HoTs and any AoE heals. Lowers the incoming 'burst' from Kephess but requires the healers to pay attention to 2 targets, 1 of whom isn't really at risk of death. If they are having issues with that phase of the fight and don't wish to use their CDs (which I would assume they don't if they are asking here for a method of reducing incoming damage), then a tank swap is the answer.
Reiterating again. Unless your tank is in recruit gear, they have the hit point pool required to survive the largest burst possible in a worst case scenario. You do not need any larger hit point pool at all to spread the damage. Doubling HoTs or using an AoE heal is a waste of time (Double casting HoT's), or Power (AOE).

Again, if you don't believe me look at the video. It's not hard, and easily repeatable.

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
09.17.2012 , 04:35 AM | #16
I can't believe people are advocating not tank swapping. That's ridiculous. Savage Wounding ticks for more damage than Kephess himself is doing with direct attacks in that phase. Can you heal through it? Sure. Should you? No. You increase the risk (especially if your healing composition lacks burst, i.e. two sages) for absolutely no benefit. There is absolutely no reason not to tank swap on Kephess' DoT application, unless your healers and tanks are unable to accomplish challenging tasks such as tying their own shoes or identifying right from left.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Docmal's Avatar


Docmal
09.17.2012 , 06:40 AM | #17
The first tank that takes kephis during bomber can mitigate 100% of kephis's damage by simply kiting him. I have done this on my shadow and gaurdian. You simply taunt then run in a wide circle around the room while the party finishes the bomber. You can even throw some ranged dmg on the bomber if you have it.

If you tank swap, which you should be because it is a safer strategy, you can have the second tank kite while you burn the walker.

Why tank swap? Besides the benefits explained above, It gives the healers some time to throw some dps on the bombers and walker.

Rehneu's Avatar


Rehneu
09.17.2012 , 09:58 AM | #18
Thank you all for the input. I have already mentioned to my guild regarding the bubbling while he is in the air. I will also mention regarding Force Shroud. Force Shroud, I actually asked the usual Sin tank last night if that can be used to help mitigate or not. He never tried it. So I was more so brain storming in a way to find out what we are missing.

I am trying to take things step by step as it seems that everything else we are blowing through with no issues. Trying to trouble shoot where we are falling apart at and why. The third bomber should be the last one with our group make up due to the amount of dps we have in the group. Having the walker down to under 15% by the time the pulsar droids were coming out was a huge help.

We will continue with the tank swap at the time of the jump/bleed phase until we can get this little thing ironed out.

Again, appreciate all of the input.

Nursejenna's Avatar


Nursejenna
09.17.2012 , 01:11 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
I can't believe people are advocating not tank swapping. That's ridiculous. Savage Wounding ticks for more damage than Kephess himself is doing with direct attacks in that phase. Can you heal through it? Sure. Should you? No. You increase the risk (especially if your healing composition lacks burst, i.e. two sages) for absolutely no benefit. There is absolutely no reason not to tank swap on Kephess' DoT application, unless your healers and tanks are unable to accomplish challenging tasks such as tying their own shoes or identifying right from left.
It actually sounds like you are the one that has a difficult time with the "challenging" task of healing/tanking through the dreaded DoT. Lol. Why it is even enough of a concern to waste the energy of the other tank having click his taunt is beyond me. Honestly. It's nothing to tank though, nothing to heal through...even with those dreaded sage healers!. lol I'm a sage healer and I can heal through that if need be by myself...and believe me - if it was in some way irritating to do so I would let my raid know.

I guess this only applies however if you possess enough common sense to bubble the tank appropriately and not use your NS as part of your healing rotation at inappropriate times.

Quote: Originally Posted by Docmal View Post

Why tank swap? Besides the benefits explained above, It gives the healers some time to throw some dps on the bombers and walker.
Yes - and if your DPS is really that horrid...then I guess you will need to find alternative ways to make up for where they lack.



Sorry Rehneu - none of my rant was helpful to your post at all. I couldn't help myself. I hope you have better luck on your next Kephess run and that whatever strat you use works well for your raid.
~*Nursejen*~
Readers are plentiful; thinkers are rare.

Rehneu's Avatar


Rehneu
09.17.2012 , 02:40 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Nursejenna View Post
Sorry Rehneu - none of my rant was helpful to your post at all. I couldn't help myself. I hope you have better luck on your next Kephess run and that whatever strat you use works well for your raid.
No worries. I too hope we can finally get this PITA down. Think I mentioned, it has now been 6 weeks (tomorrow makes it 6) since we have started to try to down him. It is frustrating and I am certain it is small things that is keeping us from completing it. I want my new ride already! lol